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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 7414871" data-attributes="member: 1465">I think  [MENTION=6881873]Toledo[/MENTION] 's idea of creating NPCs using the rules for PCs is totally legitimate, in fact it even say so on DMG page 282. It's quite a known fact that the more complex the NPC, the more difficult for the DM to run it, and a larger number of NPC's abilities will simply go unused and wasted (out-of-combat abilities especially). But to tell him just not to do it, is quite rude... if he has more fun creating NPCs this was, why not?A few things to keep in mind:- CR is supposed to be used to determine if a single monster/NPC is generally appropriate to the PC group's average level: if CR > level then such monster/NPC carries the risk of killing a PC in a single round, so the DMG recommends to use CR <= level- XP is used to gauge the total difficulty of an encounter, by adding up all the monsters' XP and compare the total with the thresholds that are based on the PCs total levels- for custom monsters/NPCs you can first estimate the CR, and then check the corresponding XPThese ideas make it difficult to design a monster/NPCs for a specific encounter difficulty target, because if you end up with something too easy/hard then you have to go back, modify something, then recalculate everything. It is probably a good idea instead to just design the monster/NPC like you want it to be, and then figure out how to make the PCs encounter it at the right level, by dropping the encounter at the proper time in the story or write the story around it. As an example, don't try to design Saragoth the Destroyer exactly to be CR 5 and 2000 XP, but instead design Saragoth the Destroyer just the way you want it, figure out its CR/XP and then "place" it appropriately in the game/story. The more detailed design process isn't actually that difficult, but the main problem with NPCs that are built with PC races and classes is that they won't suit well the "Monster statistics by CR" table on DMG page 274. That's because (N)PCs with classes have much better AC and  attacks, while monsters have better HP and damage. In addition, average damage per round is more difficult to calculate for classed characters because they have a lot of special abilities that are limited per encounter or per day. For an NPC built with with classes, you can probably assume that the NPC will use its most powerful abilities/spells during the encounter with the PCs: these are normally also the most scarce ones (e.g. highest-level spells first). So calculate its expected damage per round as if the NPC is blowing all its biggest weapons against the PCs, meaning that lesser spells and abilities won't matter for estimating the CR.More or less these are the steps that I would follow:1. Design the NPC just like you feel it should be, fully as a PC if you wish, and include all the equipment2. You now have AC, HP, attack bonus (best weapon only) and save DC to use with the table on DMG page 274. 3. You need to also calculate the average damage per round, and this is the hardest part of the process.4. Follow the instructions on page 274-275 to figure out the CR (this is very easy)5. Use the "Experience Points by CR" table on page 275 to get the XP (this is trivial)I don't think that steps 2-5 will take you more than 5 minutes per NPC!I don't buy that formula yet, at least not until I've seen some practical data... If CR is supposed to be the level of PC that is at significant risk of dying in a round, there is no way that a 20th-level spellcaster NPC is appropriate for a 10th-level party, since such spellcaster definitely has something to kill one of the PCs in a single round.</blockquote>

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