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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8830323" data-attributes="member: 93670">I think this reveals a second pretty significant disconnect over function of the rules  this discussion.  The rules should not present players with a 5e style madmax free for all  & should at least have occasional limits like the prerequisites 3.x had the exp multiplier like  2ekinda* had or something else like a hit to proficiency bonus.  Too often 5e chooses to balance the "maximum fun"<-->"good for gamist or balance reasons"  spectrum with "ask your gm" and/or by placing a not really optional at all "optional" footnote on it in  like was done with 5e's multiclassing.  Dismissing one end of that spectrum too often creates a situation of the very dishonesty you tossed out because the GM is now forced to be the bad guy & act as the fun police to reimplement basic rules structures & limitations the rules didn't bother to present. In the process of doing those things the GM is subjected to accusations along the lines of of "punishing" their players or getting told that they should just ban the not at all optional thing rather than placing restrictions that might stop it from being most optimal.  The trick in avoiding that problem is for the rules to start with a point where multiclassing has gone too far.  Sorlock & hexadin are probably a bridge too far for that  & some of those builds have already been called out as such in the thread so they make a good point of being "too far". In keeping with 5e's self wounding simplicity at all costs  it's simple enough to just assign each class a multiclassing penalty of 1-N points & apply that penalty to the character's proficiency when they make a multiclass build using that class.   The penalty could even be designed in such a way that it only applies if the lower class is more than a specific number of levels behind the higher or so that it changes after some class specific number of levels have been reached.  That's the job of a rulebook not punishing the "ask your gm" with a totally "optional" not at all optional rule.o show how not "optional" the MC rules are[spoiler="here's PHB164 multiclassing"]MulticlassingMulticlassing allows you to gain levels in multiple classes. D oing so lets you m ix the abilities of those classes to realize a character concept that might not be reflected in one of the standard class options.With this rule, you have the option of gaining a level in a new class whenever you advance in level, instead of gaining a level in your current class. Your levels in all your classes are added together to determine your character level. For example, if you have three levels in wizard and two in fighter, you’re a 5th-level character.As you advance in levels, you might primarily remain a member of your original class with just a few levels in another class, or you might change course entirely, never looking back at the class you left behind. You might even start progressing in a third or fourth class. Com pared to a single-class character of the same level, you’ll sacrifice some focus in exchange for versatilityPrerequisites To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one, as show n in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table. For example, a barbarian w ho decides to multiclass into the druid class must have both Strength and W isdom scores of 13 or higher. Without the full training that a beginning character receives, you must be a quick study in your new class, having a natural aptitude that is reflected by higher-than-average ability scores.[/spoiler]You might have noticed that at no point does it present the option to use MC or not as a topic where the GM should be consulted.  For that you need to look above the great big 30ish point Multiclassing header... [spoiler="here"]THE COMBINATION OF ABILITY SCORES, RACE,class, and background defines your character’s capabilities in the game, and the personal details you create set your character apart from every other character. Even within your class and race, you have options to fine-tune what your character can do. But this chapter is for players who—with the DM ’s permission—want to go a step further. This chapter defines two optional sets of rules for customizing your character: multiclassing and feats. Multiclassing lets you com bine classes together, and feats are special options you can choose instead of increasing your ability scores as you gain levels. Your DM decides whether these options are available in a campaign.[/spoiler]Which goes back to the "dishonest" label that you raised... There's a famous quote about Lies, damned lies, and statistics... layout could fit in there.*multi/dual classing was straight even split yes but different classes used wildly different exp tables.  It's not a perfect 1:1 so much as an example</blockquote>

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