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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8540814" data-attributes="member: 6987520">Hmm, perhaps it is just my goals for the Fighter are more subtle than others might want or appreciate? I thought I was pretty clear...  <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤷‍♂️" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f937-2642.png" title="Man shrugging    :man_shrugging:" data-shortname=":man_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So, I'll elaborate on the issues one at a time and maybe some further explanation will help?1. Out of Combat.Two things can happen here, and I would like whichever causes the least disruption to the overall class structure.A. Allow the ASI/feats at levels 6 and 14 to be used for Fighters to help them in the exploration and social pillars.This allows players who want those things to be able to focus on them a bit to help with those pillars. It also allows players who are willing to leave those pillars to other PCs to focus on more combat-oriented feats. It does not help players who want both advancement in combat via those ASI/feats AND help in the other pillars. This is my preferred and current approach after taking the time to really examine the feats in the PHB.B. Create new features for Fighters to support the exploration and social pillars.This leaves the ASI/feats open for even more help in those pillars and/or help in the combat pillar as the player chooses. The downside is the new features are probably useless to the players who want to leave the other pillars to other PCs. This was my initial approach, but it also causes the greater change to the overall class structure.So, I am leaning towards A at the moment, but willing to go back to B if that has greater appeal to more players.I also see the possibility of having a feature like Action Surge allow more at higher levels by increasing the level of physical prowess fighters can accomplish. Whether they choose an aspect (like jumping, lifting, movement, etc.) or get all is up in the air. If Action Surge allowed say two actions, then three, and maybe even four, but understanding that the Attack action wouldn't be affected to the point of allowing 16 attacks or something crazy, I think it could work. My concern is it becomes too fiddly. It also really only helps the exploration pillar...2. In CombatAgain, there a few approaches or views as I see them.A. Fighters are already at (or near) the best and so doesn't need anything more for combat.B. Fighters should be the best, but really aren't (or at least not appreciably so) because even caster classes have too many spells that directly affect combat. Fighters need to be able to cause damage to rival casters in tiers 3 and 4. (Or casters need to be nerfed so as to not be as combat-oriented?)C. Fighters deal damage well enough, but lack the versatility to make them superior to other classes in combat and are also not nearly as interesting/fun to play.My view is C, but a slight bit of B. However, with B I don't want to increase the power of fighters, but decrease the power of casters in combat.3. Regards to Nova.IMO Action Surge is the nova for Fighters and should remain so.The problem as I see it is that it is tied to closely to only really benefiting attacks. Looking at the extreme case: Level 20. You have 4 attacks with Extra Attack (3), so Action Surge could allow 8 attacks, which is pretty Nova already. But, when it comes do "surging" to do other things, you cannot accomplish anything more at level 20 than you could at level 2! You could Dash (move 60) and Action Surge Dash (for another 30) at levels 2 and 20--no difference.But, if we use the idea I outlined above and tried to implement with Heroic Surge and Marvelous Surge, at level 20 you could Dash (move 60), and then Marvelous Surge for Dash (+30), Dash (+30), Dash (+30), allowing you to move 150 feet!Basically, a good way to think of it in a nutshell is when you Surge, you gain an extra action on your turn than can be used for anything other than Attack. Heroic Surge would give two additional actions, Marvelous Surge three additional actions. If you take the Attack action before surging, you can gain one additional attack per action instead of choosing new actions for your surge.This way, at level 20, you Attack for 4 attacks as your action, and then Surge for 3 more actions. Any surge Attack is just one more attack, but you might choose to Dash, Attack, Dodge, allowing you a total of 5 attacks on your turn.This makes Surging more Nova in the shenanigans you can do because you have more actions, not just more attacks.By also allowing it a multiple to movement, Action Surge could double your capabilities (double jump distance, double lift, double swim speed, etc.) for physical prowess, Heroic Surge would triple them (so STR 16 could long jump 48 feet!), and Marvelous Surge quadruple them (STR 16 could lift 1920 lbs.!).So, you only have one surge (maybe two in tier 4?) per short rest, but your Surge becomes more powerful allowing you to do some shenanigans.  None of this rivals some high level spells, certainly, but with adding some BM maneuvers for versatility, it gets fighters closer.Finally, my other suggestion is to nerf very high level spells which IMO are too good, but I know for many players (as had already been voiced) that would not appeal to them.Hopefully that makes my positions more clear? Also, while I would love a class redesign I want to play, I am also doing this more of the people who want the "fix" between fighter and wizard. The approach I am taking might not be ideal, but I am worried too much makes the redesign too OP...</blockquote>

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