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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8180021" data-attributes="member: 20323">Sure. The stat block is 4th edition and it's in my old conversion of Dragon Mountain (posted on these boards). That PDF doesn't read the stat block as text, but as an image, so I'm cutting-pasting the image, and attaching it here.The intent was not simulationist and exacting. It was cinematic and abstract.The horde made an attack against each PC in the "area." This occurred in a large multi-level dungeon with very specifically defined areas, and when a horde formed was determined by some moving dials & exploration skill challenge spanning the entire dungeon. My assumption was that the kobolds were canny enough to get about 4 kobolds able to attack each PC (in 5e parlance 2 kobolds Help the others, and average damage of the horde attack was ~2.5x a single kobold's damage), while the PCs were canny enough to use terrain and positioning to limit it so no more than about 4 kobolds could attack each of them.The reason I'm not converting it to 5e here is that I'm not 100% convinced that a monster stat block is the right tool to get the job done. Since then, I've increasing come to think of a swarm as a hazard, and less as a monster.In my opinion, the fatal flaw when approaching a swarm/horde encounter is focusing on the stat block and "traditional combat" aspect of the encounter. Yes, that's there, and it's good that you're hacking the system to get something that works in that department.But the focus should be on inspiring creative lateral thinking. That's where the payoff is. For example, presenting a "near unending stream of monsters" is actually about the players discovering/creating a means by which to stop that stream. They might collapse a tunnel blocking the kobolds. They might use their sonic McGuffin to drive off the giant bats. They might charm the chuul and convince it to telepathically call off its hounds of tindalos.I think the uninspired 5e swarm stat block – and how I've seen 5e handle swarms in official adventures – is a product of this flaw. In my opinion, swarms have a lot more in common with hazards/trap than with monsters, and the more we can incorporate such things (i.e. triggers, ways to avoid, escalation points, dynamic threats, countermeasures) into our presentation of swarms, the better our design will be & the better the play experience.The problem with auto-damage is the narrative of the horde, and mechanics you're setting up around it, are working against you.You describe a balor with wreaths of flame tracing about its shimmering form, and players aren't going to bat an eye when they take damage from its Fire Aura.However, have a bunch of kobolds, orcs, goblins, norkers, or whatever lay into them without touching the dice to roll and watch their reaction. When I did this with my group (when using the Handling Mobs rules in the DMG), there was stiff dissonance and objection. And rightly so. They have things on their sheet like Parry and shield just for occasions where they get melee attacked. Auto-damage from a horde is saying: "Yes, this is a monster. Look it has stats. Yes, it's attacking you. But no, that defense won't work against it. Because it's...uh...a special monster."Another way to phrase this is that if you're going to make assumptions about monster effectiveness when functioning in a horde, then you'd better damn well make some assumptions in favor of your players too. Better yet, let them have the chance to use those cool abilities and save themselves.The other problem is that your scenario – anyone below this AC gets hit – also doesn't map to how we imagine certain swarms. A swarm of fire ants sure as heck is going to find a way under your plate armor. But having that plate armor with visor is going to protect you from giant bats – at least from their damaging bites, not from being blinded and confused by their fluttering blocking your already limited sightlines of your visor.My long-winded way of saying: Not all swarms are created equal. Design specifically.A swarm is different from a horde. A swarm of fire ants functions differently from a swarm of bats. A horde of kobolds should threaten different things than a horde of orcs.Yep, it's cinematic and abstract. I was also working within the context of a kobold dungeon littered with Tiny side passages and tunnels and vertical escarpments that kobolds could squeeze through. Breaking away from the confines of 2D thinking may help your group a little here (or maybe you already have, in which case disregard this point).Just like any other combat, there's some common sense that you need to apply. If the players hunker down in a choke point that should affect how many orcs can reach them. Same same here, but I'd also argue that one of the countermeasures to facing a horde might be: Reach the choke point at Scarl's Gulch 240 feet away before the orc horde kills you. And reaching the choke point would cue an end to the fight against the horde, possibly a few independent orcs to deal with, but the main threat has passed (for now).</blockquote>

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