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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 182385" data-attributes="member: 2013">Re: Re: How to keep players motivated (or, "change that smelly old carrot once in a while"I actually think I am comparing apples to apples.  The four sets were later consolidated into one book (the Rules Cyclopedia) and were simply a way of "breaking up" the entire system into bite-sized chunks.  The rules didn't "change" when you went from the Basic Set to the Expert Set because there really wasn't a treatment of 4th level and beyond in the Basic Set.  Basic D&D is not just the Basic Set and Expert Set because that does not contemplate levels above 14th.  It is all four boxed sets taken together as a unified whole.  In the same way, 3rd edition is not just the rules for 1st-3rd level characters, but rather the rules in the SRD taken as a whole (including, eventually, the Epic-Level handbook).The issue I was trying to point out is that by breaking up the system into chunks based on character level and then presenting different "carrots" for each "chunk," Basic D&D showed that it is a good idea to occasionally change the carrots offered to players.  That is because when a player reached 4th level, the player (and/or DM) had to go get the Expert Set - and suddenly a new set of challenges and carrots became evident.I am going to assume that the Epic Level Handbook is part of the "Core 3e System" in the same way since it covers rules for levels beyond 20.  I am *REALLY* hoping that this work gives a treatment for DMs on how to reward characters without throwing ever-increasing amounts of gold and/or ever-more-powerful magic items at them.I am not disputing that the material is available - the issue to me is not availability but rather, "does 3rd edition teach you/show you how to change the carrots?"  In my mind, the answer is, "no, it does not."  The DMG barely touches upon any rewards other than magical treasures, gold, and XP.  It's not a matter of "do the rules exist," it's a matter of "are new - and old - DMs shown how to properly use these rules as incentives to their PCs?"The point is, in both Basic D&D and 3e they have given you the tools.  However, in Basic D&D they provided an "owner's manual" detailing the methods for using these tools to incent your players while 3e has not.I don't know that this changes the carrot, though... it just seems like it gives you another monster/NPC to fight. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />  The point in both systems is always "accumulate XP, rise in level," but the "other stuff" that you might want to collect is at issue... gold, magic, armies, land, noble titles, etc.And 2e and 1e both suffered from the same problem I am pointing out here... they gave you the tools but didn't show you how to use them - and didn't really stress using them.  The focus in the DMG in 1e, 2e, and 3e seems to be "kill the monster, grab the treasure" with almost no mention of anything else PCs might do to gain power.  In the real world, having someone important owe you a favor is almost as good as - and sometimes better than - an amount of cash.  Having a position of importance gives you power just as well as money does.  It just seems to me that 1e/2e/3e have never addressed these forms of "political" and "social" power as a desirable goal... it's always cash/magic items.I hand out XP "on the fly" - immediately after each encounter/trap/whatever.  If a PC levels "in the dungeon" he immediately gains the following benefits of the new level - hit points, Saves, and BAB.  All other abilities (spells, Feats, Skills, etc.) must wait until he gets back to "civilization" and has time to train/study/whatever.  Characters can advance multiple levels "in the dungeon," but gaining most of the benefits of those levels is delayed.They do pick up "story awards" - bonuses of 500 to 2500 XP (depending on their level) if they reach the "end" (defined as "accomplishing the final goal or beating up the big boss") of a published (or home-brewed) adventure.I do this (XP on the fly) because I run a rather deadly campaign and the PCs need all the help they can get - I don't pull punches.  I had at least one PC death every 2 or 3 sessions and frequent Heal checks were the only thing that kept things from getting more lethal (I warned my players up front about the lethality).IMO, handing XP out only "at the end of the adventure" seems a bit odd (handing it out at the end of a session is okay with me, as well - it still feels somewhat natural)... are you going to tell me that if I run through the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil with you, I am only going to gain one level tops because I don't get XP just because I didn't get to the end of some arbitrary book?  If I go into a dungeon, kill a bunch of goblins, then get bored and decide to go somewhere else, do I get 0 XP just because I didn't reach the "end" of the dungeon and kill the chief goblin?I'm not trying to be mean-spirited, I'm just trying to get clarification on what you mean by "the end of the adventure."  If it's defined as "going through all 32 or 64 or 128 published pages" I think it's a very poor way to award experience as it means players may have to be railroaded to the end of the adventure just to pick up their XP.Again, 3e provides the tools, but doesn't provide a "how to" guide... and that's where I think the ball was dropped.--The Sigil</blockquote>

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