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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ferrix" data-source="post: 2111354" data-attributes="member: 6115">Ever seen some guy go barreling down a crowded street?  Seems like almost everyone he encounters is surprised as he nearly knocks them over running past.  They failed their spot/listen check or even if they did notice him they couldn't react quick enough (lower initiative).  Now the one guy who gets out of the way, he noticed him and reacted quicker.  Seems like a pretty likely thing to happen.Actually, this wouldn't be a surprise round, if it is, you are using the surprise round incorrectly.  Basically, the second the opponent decides to start charging, you roll initiative.  If you win, you see him about to charge and react accordingly.  If he wins, by the time you notice his charge you don't have time to react accordingly. You are too strictly dissociating the rounds for one in this example and don't give the preconditions for the round.The preconditions for this would be say the fighter and wizard are walking down a hall, the rogue rounds a corner 30 feet ahead.  Fighter and wizard see the rogue, rogue sees fighter and wizard (thus no surprise round).  Initiative is rolled, rogue wins.The fighter and wizard believe* they are prepared for the rogue they see, however the rogue wins initiative and gets the upper hand the first round and bolts past the fighter who although he believed he was prepared, wasn't and sneak attacks the wizard who also lost initiative.Perhaps knowing they are in a hostile thieve's guild or whatever, they would normally be hostile to anything they encounter.Differently, say the characters are seventy feet apart in a courtyard.  Both parties see each other.  Initiative is rolled.  Rogue wins initiative gets to move first, double moves forward past the fighter who doesn't have time to react, but doesn't reach the wizard.  Fighter & Wizard engage, combat continues as normal.Again different: parties 90 feet apart, parties see each other.  Initiative is rolled; rogue wins initiative.  Rogue double moves forward, now 30 feet from wizard, 20 from fighter.  Fighter & Wizard engage (fighter, say a gnome in full plate) moves fifteen feet towards the rogue and readies an attack, wizard stays put.  Round 2: rogue moves towards wizard through fighters threatened area (readied attack goes off, then perhaps an AoO), finishes move to wizard, hits wizard normally.Again different: same setup as first, rogue rounds corner but fighter & wizard don't see him.  Surprise round: moves 30 feet past fighter (no AoO or readied attack despite being on their toes persay).  Initiative rolled, rogue wins.  Gets a full-attack in on the wizard for sneak attack.  Fighter & Wizard go.This last one, despite being now aware of the rogue, the fighter and the wizard just can't react quick enough as the rogue moves in to combat and strikes.  The minute you say no flat-footed in the first round (not the surprise round), you create a situation which makes a very sudden break in time (literally).  Normally: The surprise round happens before the fighter and wizard are aware, the first normal round, they are aware of the newly arrived and unexpected rogue but just don't get their defences up in time.  Your version: The surprise rounds happens before the fighter and wizard are aware, the first normal round, they are aware and suddenly fully defensive at the newly arrived and unexpected rogue despite not having been able to react to the newly arrived stimulus.I don't believe that is a problem, just because I can see someone doesn't mean I can always predict and act in counter to their actions despite how "wary" of them I may be.  A friend who is standing across from me, may suddenly dart past me to do something, but that doesn't always mean I can react quick enough to get fully out of his way or stop him or anything of that sort.</blockquote>

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