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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bastoche" data-source="post: 2115467" data-attributes="member: 306">If you are invisible, you *almost* automatically surprise everyone since the spot check will fail. There could be a listen vs move silently. My post is an application of my quoted SRD rules in your scenario. The players are screwed in your scenario due to bad luck i.e. loss of initiative, not because of some clever strategy, and/or due to a poor choice of class/class ability and /or feat. Your scenario is not doom to fail for the PC who lost initiative. It's doom to fail if your PC both lose the initiative, doesn't not prepare a stategy to beat sneak attack if they lose init and if they choose to forget the feats that would allow them to protect their wizard. In other words, the PCs are not "optimized" for such series of circumstances. I suspect in some other circumstances, they are better prepare due to class choice and/or feat choice. In other words, the situation is NOT problematic, you can legally overcome flat-footedness with uncanny dodge (keep dex) and combat reflexes (keep AoO). If it was absolutly and totally impossible to overcome such situation, you could have a point vs FF. But it is possible. There's feats and class abilities for that. Improve initiative would help too.My point is: look at the SRD quote I did. It says:1) everyone is flat-footed2) make the appropriate check to see if there's a surprise round. If there's a surprise round, everyone who is not surprise, roll initiative and act in order of initiative. At your turn, you stop being flat footed. In you scenarios, everyone is assumed to be aware of each other. Therefore, no surprises.3) roll initiative if you were surprised in surpise round.4) at your turn of initiative choose your action. Then and only then can you ready an action. 5) goto 5 until fight ends.That is the rules as written. Basically, what you are asking for is the following:"Suppose my players don't want to pick the feats necessary to survive such and such encounters, how can I bend the rules (legally overcome) to allow them to do it?"It's not as if that situation was hopeless. It's hopeless for someone without the skill to lose initative vs a rogue. The rules are how they are. If you want to change them, fine, but as per SRD, RAW, whatever you call it, a rogue that wins initiative gets a sneak attack, anyone losing init is flat-footed ed of story.</blockquote>

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