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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgbrowning" data-source="post: 463876" data-attributes="member: 5724">Flame on! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Well to quote the part of your post that you're glossing over...  You've included me as a "defender of ammorality."  (ie. from the latter part of your post.. moral relativism=ammoral) You've decided that i expect "to have the herd rush to defend" me. (Herd being a loaded term. By labeling any defenders of something as being part of the "herd" you're attempting to reduce the effectivness of that defense).  You've said that i have had "the establishment" sell me my angst that you've ascribed to me. all of this is straw maning... You've said that i'm fanatically chaotic, which is only funny.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Anti-establishment means what it says.... it doesn't mean "prepackaged by the establishment" style of dissidence like you seem to believe. The fact that you think a particular hypocritical stance is "typical" says a lot about the stance your coming from.  Just because you think typical anti-establishment means hypocritical doesn't mean that's a reality.Paladins ARE not free with possibilites  (ie. they, and druids and monks which i also mention, are limited by a code and/or morality) when compared to the other classes.  Its not a debatable statement, they have to be a particular code/alignment, while other classes don't.  Any class can have the same code a paladin has (excepting monks and druids) and not vice versa, so i dont see how you can think they're not "not free with possibilities" when compared in that manner.The Paladin's code is "unilluminating" as described in the PHB.  for a quick example.. compare the "average" paladin with SHARK's paladins. Unilluminating means that it needs to be clarified to prevent confusion, not that the concept of "lawful good" is an unillumination viewpoint of the world.  That idea, the thought that i am somehow anti-lawful good is your interpretation.  In RL, i'd classify myself as lawful good. There is too much room for interpretation of something that is integral to the definition of the class.  The paladin is defined as a single idea...  that idea should be less open to intepretation for greater portablity from one gaming group to another.  because breaking that idea, breaks the players chance to play the character. Because you're ignoring the part, in ()'s of my post that also said i am a moral absolutist.  Hrm... i guess that statement is also said by all the other "typical non-establishment gamer" types.  Hrm? i said i had an advantage that was only available by having a non-western mindset.  if you want to put "there is some enherent inferiority in having a 'western mindset'" in my statement as well thats fine.  I didn't say that, nor implied that.  I'll now assume you'll say i did because you're associating me with a group of people who do, because i said "typical non-establishment" gamer.  and those people do that (according to your defination)...   Those people are also moral absolutists? WHOA NELLY!......  um where the **** in my post did i mock the philosophical beliefs of Paladin's or the people who believe "equivalently"?I said it needed to be more limited.  That it was unclear and leads to game difficulties that other classes, ('cept druids and monk, but to a much lesser state) dont have to deal withExplain to me how my post is in any form-or-fashion remotely equal to:Um... it isn't.  I didn't attempt to personally ridicule you...  You may feel like I did, and for that im sorry, but nowhere in my post is a "Celebrim is a right wing Nazi loving monster!"  Just like i would tell a kid to stop calling another kid names.well.... hrm...   i'll stick with my "coiling up and distainfully claming maturity" sthick.... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Or should i post like you did?....I'll describe you this way then.....=-=-=-=-=-=[Start hyperbole]Yes, I have a viewpoint that is morally superior. And just enough intelligence to make a post that hopefully people wont see though so i can keep pretending that my post was based on rationality, and not a conservitive mindset which is so fragile i lash out at any apparant provocation.I'm not a misanthrope... i believe in behaving in a lawful good "godly" manner.  And that includes publicly appearing like an insulting idiot.I love the establishment...  it allows me to feed like a pig at the trough while other people are forced into economic slavery to provide my pendoulous stomach.I'm not a dissident... why should i fight a system that keeps me on top.  i love hurting others for my benefit.Western is the BEST!  there isn't any culture that nearly as good. if there was, why does every other country want to be like us?See me exercise my god-given rights!  If you continue with your liberal insults and belittling i'll get my gun and shoot you! [end Hyperbole]-=-=-=-=-=-=See the difference between my style and yours?  Do you want me to make a long list of the "reasons" behind my assumptions about you in the hopes that somehow, because i have a reason for thinking a particular way, that my insulting of you will be viewed as ok? That's why I "coil up and disdainfully claim my emotional and mental maturity over anyone who would dare mock my set of beliefs."you want to aplogize now? or should we continue?joe b.edit:I don't hate paladins nor you Celebrim, nor the mentalities behind the paladin, and unless your a child-killer or somthing the thoughts behind you Celebrim.  I don't like people being abusive with me, even if they think they have a reason.the last bit [hyperbole] is my attempt to show you that, by making assumptions about people, even if you think your right.. and then being abusive to them based upon your assumption is probably not the best way to act in a public forum.  It makes you look like a jerk, hurts yourself and others, and damages the sense of community that EN world works hard at maintaining.</blockquote>

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