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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 3945352" data-attributes="member: 704">This is the point at which role playing / storytelling within the D&amp;D system breaks down.&nbsp; The players have too much knowledge of how sturdy they are.&nbsp; It is impossible to create or sustain tension by imposing danger on a player of a game when the player knows for a fact that he can 'win' the ensuing conflict.&nbsp; Video games handle this by having cut scenes and taking control out of the hands of the player.&nbsp; That kind of solution does not work out so well in D&amp;D.&nbsp; To put it bluntly, a player will always succeed his saving throw vs Fiction..Now, there are ways within the rules to make this much more deadly.1)&nbsp; Use poison on the crossbow bolts.2)&nbsp; Grant the crossbow users a free surprise round with the players flatfooted.3)&nbsp; Use Rogues with a level appropriate amount of sneak attack dice.4)&nbsp; Use Rapid Shot feat and Bows (or use Rapid Shot + Rapid Reload for crossbows)Lets assume a group of 5th level Rogues.&nbsp; Using 12 of them should be a hard, but not entirely unreasonable encounter for 10th level characters.&nbsp; You will go from having 12 attacks that can inflict 1d8 damage to having 24 attacks that can do 1d8+3d6+Poison Damage.Now, pulling this out on your players 'cold', with no indication that these Crossbow men are not your run of the mill cannon fodder is probably overkill.&nbsp; The surprise round will almost certainly drop the low AC party members.&nbsp; Assuming your bowmen stay mobile, they can probably take down those who are left standing.&nbsp; I would therefore make a point of having this as a capture ambush and not a kill ambush, and use a Con based poison.&nbsp; But I would also make a point of using hit and run..&nbsp; Exchange shots for 2 or 3 rounds, flee, and repeat.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lord Zardoz, post: 3945352, member: 704"] This is the point at which role playing / storytelling within the D&D system breaks down. The players have too much knowledge of how sturdy they are. It is impossible to create or sustain tension by imposing danger on a player of a game when the player knows for a fact that he can 'win' the ensuing conflict. Video games handle this by having cut scenes and taking control out of the hands of the player. That kind of solution does not work out so well in D&D. To put it bluntly, a player will always succeed his saving throw vs Fiction.. Now, there are ways within the rules to make this much more deadly. 1) Use poison on the crossbow bolts. 2) Grant the crossbow users a free surprise round with the players flatfooted. 3) Use Rogues with a level appropriate amount of sneak attack dice. 4) Use Rapid Shot feat and Bows (or use Rapid Shot + Rapid Reload for crossbows) Lets assume a group of 5th level Rogues. Using 12 of them should be a hard, but not entirely unreasonable encounter for 10th level characters. You will go from having 12 attacks that can inflict 1d8 damage to having 24 attacks that can do 1d8+3d6+Poison Damage. Now, pulling this out on your players 'cold', with no indication that these Crossbow men are not your run of the mill cannon fodder is probably overkill. The surprise round will almost certainly drop the low AC party members. Assuming your bowmen stay mobile, they can probably take down those who are left standing. I would therefore make a point of having this as a capture ambush and not a kill ambush, and use a Con based poison. But I would also make a point of using hit and run.. Exchange shots for 2 or 3 rounds, flee, and repeat. END COMMUNICATION [/QUOTE]

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