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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9261750" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Right, when the DM says &quot;the PCs will loose this fight&quot;, then utterly ignores any game play that happens and after a while just says &quot;and...the PCs loose&quot;.But if the DM &quot;frames&quot; an encounter so that there is a high chance there will be a set out come.....that is ok, right?&nbsp; I don't see my self as doing manipulation things beyond the game reality in a metagame god way, but yes things in the game reality will do so.&nbsp; Take a basic werewolf trap:&nbsp; They grab a victim and take them into the woods, leaving a trail to follow.&nbsp; The victim is tied in place in the middle of a falling pit trap.&nbsp; So the werewolves goal is to get a large rescue party caught in the pit trap...and then devour them.&nbsp; (and just to note in my game I don't do either the &quot;player rolls to know everything about werewolves&quot; or the &quot;player rolls to disarm the trap&quot; type mechanical things)&nbsp; So the PCs follow the trail and fall into the trap.&nbsp; So when the werewolves attack, I run the werewolves exactly what they are: violent wild blood thirsty killer monster.&nbsp; The werewolves rip into the PCs will the full intent of killing the characters.&nbsp; Now the out come is not set, though most casual players will loose a character in such an encounter.Now the vast majority of other games DO manipulate things for set endings.&nbsp; The big one is the DM says &quot;no character death&quot; and &quot;The PCs must always win encounters&quot;.&nbsp; So this right here sets up for a ending of the characters will survive and win the encounter.&nbsp; The DM will likely just yous the generic werewolf from the monster manual.&nbsp; The DM will just have the werewolves attack, much like mindless video game NPCs.&nbsp; And the DM will never press an advantage.This is a big point.&nbsp; As a DM I frame encounters as pure nightmare fuel.&nbsp; But I don't care what the players think or say.&nbsp; The other two DMs, are very soft DMs.&nbsp; They are best buddies with their players.&nbsp; So if they even frame a slightly gray scene, the players will complain and the DMs will both roll over and do whatever the players want.Now my way is the Hard Fun way: I do this, you don't like it, get lost.&nbsp; So what is the way that is not Hard Fun?My question here is how to keep a player on track.&nbsp; If you have any sort of plot story the character can only do set things to move it forward.&nbsp; The big BUT is that the player does not know exactly what to do.&nbsp; If the player did, then it would be the Scripted Game.&nbsp; This is the big point I see.&nbsp; The DM exploiting. This is a good way to put it too.&nbsp; This is where you loose me: the idea that the DM must sit around and wait for the player to make a move.&nbsp; I will never agree with this idea.&nbsp; I guess it works fine if you want a game at the level of Scooby-Do.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9261750, member: 6684958"] Right, when the DM says "the PCs will loose this fight", then utterly ignores any game play that happens and after a while just says "and...the PCs loose". But if the DM "frames" an encounter so that there is a high chance there will be a set out come.....that is ok, right? I don't see my self as doing manipulation things beyond the game reality in a metagame god way, but yes things in the game reality will do so. Take a basic werewolf trap: They grab a victim and take them into the woods, leaving a trail to follow. The victim is tied in place in the middle of a falling pit trap. So the werewolves goal is to get a large rescue party caught in the pit trap...and then devour them. (and just to note in my game I don't do either the "player rolls to know everything about werewolves" or the "player rolls to disarm the trap" type mechanical things) So the PCs follow the trail and fall into the trap. So when the werewolves attack, I run the werewolves exactly what they are: violent wild blood thirsty killer monster. The werewolves rip into the PCs will the full intent of killing the characters. Now the out come is not set, though most casual players will loose a character in such an encounter. Now the vast majority of other games DO manipulate things for set endings. The big one is the DM says "no character death" and "The PCs must always win encounters". So this right here sets up for a ending of the characters will survive and win the encounter. The DM will likely just yous the generic werewolf from the monster manual. The DM will just have the werewolves attack, much like mindless video game NPCs. And the DM will never press an advantage. This is a big point. As a DM I frame encounters as pure nightmare fuel. But I don't care what the players think or say. The other two DMs, are very soft DMs. They are best buddies with their players. So if they even frame a slightly gray scene, the players will complain and the DMs will both roll over and do whatever the players want. Now my way is the Hard Fun way: I do this, you don't like it, get lost. So what is the way that is not Hard Fun? My question here is how to keep a player on track. If you have any sort of plot story the character can only do set things to move it forward. The big BUT is that the player does not know exactly what to do. If the player did, then it would be the Scripted Game. This is the big point I see. The DM exploiting. This is a good way to put it too. This is where you loose me: the idea that the DM must sit around and wait for the player to make a move. I will never agree with this idea. I guess it works fine if you want a game at the level of Scooby-Do. [/QUOTE]

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