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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9262288" data-attributes="member: 6684958"><p>Does my more specific example of the Werewolf pit trap work?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do wonder: what evidence do you need? Like I could do a poll and ask "does your game have character death?" But I know the answer will be 25% no never, 50% a weak maybe sometimes(that I count as a no) and 25% would say "yes it's part of the game". And as the topic has come up 100s of times, I know what a fair number of posters have said before. But, ok, if I had that poll as "evidence" would that be enough for you? Or would you just always be moving the bar? "oh well that is only what one poll says" So if I did five or ten or twenty, how many would be enough? Do I need video recordings of live game play? What is enough "evidence" for you?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I understand how it sounds, but you want to keep it in context. I'm not saying all the time about everything: I was being specific. I was talking about things that might happen during game play: like the PCs being captured. In my game this is a possibility that happens. There are a ton of players that will whine and cry and demand that the game has no capture of the PCs ever. And there are a ton of DMs that both agree and bow their heads and say "yes player". So in my game, it's possible a PC might get captured...and if a player wants to whine or cry or complain.....I don't care. </p><p></p><p>I don't see it in the same way?</p><p></p><p>The idea of a DM just sitting there, waiting for a player to make a move, so then and only then can the DM make a move....is wrong to me. </p><p></p><p>And I run half of my games with Scooby Do, Nancy Drew, or Hardy Boys level of mystery as that is the best level of mystery that casual games can handle.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't agree. But then you are putting all the focus on the trap and ignoring everything else. I can see lots of ways this framing encounter can go, though sure many others can not.</p><p></p><p>I have done this framed encounter lots of times, so I can tell you exactly how it goes 99% of the time for New to my Game Casual Players. The players never even think the word "trap". They see the victim and have their character just stumble over to save them...and fall in the pit trap. Then the werewolves pounce on them with speed, violence and deadly force. The players being all Lone Wolf types ignore each other, the players have a hard time with the concept of a 360 degree battle, and there is a good chance several characters will die. </p><p></p><p>But then the players did just drink some Mt Dew and blunder into the trap, refused to work together as a team, and did not know many rules past "I roll 1d20 to hit". </p><p></p><p>When I run such a framed encounter for Hard Fun players, I lot of different things happen based on the intelligent actions of the players. Like: the players send a tester in to set off the trap, the players set up a counter trap, the players stage a "kill the victim" ruse, the players find a werewolf to "ask" questions and so on. And if the character do fall in the trap they don't just go "waaa?", they have their characters quickly get back to back and cooperate and work together as a combat team to win the encounter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is all very detailed. I would do this in my mind, and in my vague notes. Though...I don't really have 'words' for most of the events and actions: that is a nice way to define things.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Are these set by the players or the DM? I like to 3-5 Stakes(as you'd call them) running for each character...independent of the players wants or wishes. Though if a player wants to add a vague one I'll add it to the pile.</p><p></p><p>This is really the meat of my over all question: how do you do this?</p><p></p><p>Like I have the Bar become Wolf sub plot 'stake': a small nature spirit shows up at my whim to taunt and tempt Bar. One of the werewolf brutes tries to turn Bar, one werewolf sneak just tries to confused Bar to get in a sneak attack. One werewolf lady tries to get Bar as a mate. So throughout the adventure each of these will happen, but with no set out come: it will depend what the player does. But none of them are 'off limits' to me...I firmly control each one.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, but then how do you address things like many DMs declaring the PCs immortal and then altering the game around that?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not? I'm talking about the two of them. They got the whole question rolling. This is why I mention them. </p><p></p><p>I guess the question is: when I type "DM Scott is a soft DM that is Best Buddies with his players" why do you read that as me saying "everyone in the world"?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not a Saw fan. I do want an intelligent hard difficult game. </p><p></p><p>Elaborate here a bit?</p><p></p><p>I'm all for what players choose to do in a scene.....but it will always be a Hard Fun Scene. That is my game. A lot of players like, or think they like, the Goofy Casual Game. And when they act that way in my game....it does not work out for them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No problem here, assuming intelligent players.</p><p></p><p>This one does not work much as many players are clueless and unmotivated. I know what they are thinking: nothing. But telling players basic things also works here.</p><p></p><p>Agreed here.</p><p></p><p>See fuzzy logic here? Like would I accept another DM running my 'dm side' of the game? </p><p></p><p>How does a player be in the driver set work? The player just says "there is a werewolf den for me to fight"....then they just look at me to create the den from scratch and run the werewolf side of the fight? If they are driving, should I not say "do it yourself"?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was never asking for myself....</p><p></p><p>I can make Scooby jokes too. As said above I do use Scooby Do mysteries in my games.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9262288, member: 6684958"] Does my more specific example of the Werewolf pit trap work? I do wonder: what evidence do you need? Like I could do a poll and ask "does your game have character death?" But I know the answer will be 25% no never, 50% a weak maybe sometimes(that I count as a no) and 25% would say "yes it's part of the game". And as the topic has come up 100s of times, I know what a fair number of posters have said before. But, ok, if I had that poll as "evidence" would that be enough for you? Or would you just always be moving the bar? "oh well that is only what one poll says" So if I did five or ten or twenty, how many would be enough? Do I need video recordings of live game play? What is enough "evidence" for you? I understand how it sounds, but you want to keep it in context. I'm not saying all the time about everything: I was being specific. I was talking about things that might happen during game play: like the PCs being captured. In my game this is a possibility that happens. There are a ton of players that will whine and cry and demand that the game has no capture of the PCs ever. And there are a ton of DMs that both agree and bow their heads and say "yes player". So in my game, it's possible a PC might get captured...and if a player wants to whine or cry or complain.....I don't care. I don't see it in the same way? The idea of a DM just sitting there, waiting for a player to make a move, so then and only then can the DM make a move....is wrong to me. And I run half of my games with Scooby Do, Nancy Drew, or Hardy Boys level of mystery as that is the best level of mystery that casual games can handle. I don't agree. But then you are putting all the focus on the trap and ignoring everything else. I can see lots of ways this framing encounter can go, though sure many others can not. I have done this framed encounter lots of times, so I can tell you exactly how it goes 99% of the time for New to my Game Casual Players. The players never even think the word "trap". They see the victim and have their character just stumble over to save them...and fall in the pit trap. Then the werewolves pounce on them with speed, violence and deadly force. The players being all Lone Wolf types ignore each other, the players have a hard time with the concept of a 360 degree battle, and there is a good chance several characters will die. But then the players did just drink some Mt Dew and blunder into the trap, refused to work together as a team, and did not know many rules past "I roll 1d20 to hit". When I run such a framed encounter for Hard Fun players, I lot of different things happen based on the intelligent actions of the players. Like: the players send a tester in to set off the trap, the players set up a counter trap, the players stage a "kill the victim" ruse, the players find a werewolf to "ask" questions and so on. And if the character do fall in the trap they don't just go "waaa?", they have their characters quickly get back to back and cooperate and work together as a combat team to win the encounter. This is all very detailed. I would do this in my mind, and in my vague notes. Though...I don't really have 'words' for most of the events and actions: that is a nice way to define things. Are these set by the players or the DM? I like to 3-5 Stakes(as you'd call them) running for each character...independent of the players wants or wishes. Though if a player wants to add a vague one I'll add it to the pile. This is really the meat of my over all question: how do you do this? Like I have the Bar become Wolf sub plot 'stake': a small nature spirit shows up at my whim to taunt and tempt Bar. One of the werewolf brutes tries to turn Bar, one werewolf sneak just tries to confused Bar to get in a sneak attack. One werewolf lady tries to get Bar as a mate. So throughout the adventure each of these will happen, but with no set out come: it will depend what the player does. But none of them are 'off limits' to me...I firmly control each one. Ok, but then how do you address things like many DMs declaring the PCs immortal and then altering the game around that? I'm not? I'm talking about the two of them. They got the whole question rolling. This is why I mention them. I guess the question is: when I type "DM Scott is a soft DM that is Best Buddies with his players" why do you read that as me saying "everyone in the world"? I'm not a Saw fan. I do want an intelligent hard difficult game. Elaborate here a bit? I'm all for what players choose to do in a scene.....but it will always be a Hard Fun Scene. That is my game. A lot of players like, or think they like, the Goofy Casual Game. And when they act that way in my game....it does not work out for them. No problem here, assuming intelligent players. This one does not work much as many players are clueless and unmotivated. I know what they are thinking: nothing. But telling players basic things also works here. Agreed here. See fuzzy logic here? Like would I accept another DM running my 'dm side' of the game? How does a player be in the driver set work? The player just says "there is a werewolf den for me to fight"....then they just look at me to create the den from scratch and run the werewolf side of the fight? If they are driving, should I not say "do it yourself"? I was never asking for myself.... I can make Scooby jokes too. As said above I do use Scooby Do mysteries in my games. [/QUOTE]
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