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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9264764" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Please don't cast aspersions. It doesn't do your position any good.I keep telling you, I don't have a "social circle." I don't have a group of people I consistently game with. I never have. Yet, despite that, I have never seen the thing you describe.Then what on earth is "DM that bow and roll over for their players"? Because that's literally what you're describing. A DM that is servile. That's literally what "bowing one's head" refers to! Slavery, where the slaves aren't allowed to look their enslavers in the eye!No, they aren't. They really, really aren't.That genuinely has nothing to do with the design of Dungeon World, nor any PbtA game I've ever seen. At all. These are not board games. I've literally never actually had a battle mat for my DW game. It's either pure theater of the mind, or a quickly-drawn MSPaint map, or (very very rarely) a nice map I drafted up myself or found online.The vast majority of gamers are not that casual. That's what I keep telling you. You think they're basically all gamers. They aren't. My experience of DMs is, naturally, a lot more limited since there's about 4x-5x more players than DMs out there. But I have found relatively few such DMs too. It's extremely easy to find DMs that are not casual at all--and, IME, rather more difficult to find such "beer and pretzels" DMs who genuinely don't care about campaign world content.Again: this is weird. I have never--not once--encountered players who expected a dragon to just sit there and allow people to beat it up. Not ever. If I didn't know better, I would genuinely think you were inventing a hyperbolic fake example for some kind of joke. That's how ludicrously weird this is.Being perfectly frank, I think that would be a bad idea, so I'm going to decline.So the world has no meaning. You throw whatever you feel like in there, whenever you feel like it. Who cares about the player? You'll just fob them off with some nonsense and continue forcing your preferences down their throats regardless.No wonder you have trouble keeping players...The reason you don't just do things on whim is because by avoiding that, you encourage the players to care. They know that their choices matter, because you'll actually work with and around them. They know the stuff in the world is there for an actual reason, even if they don't for sure know what that reason is yet. They know that if they ask questions, they'll get real, sincere answers, not BS made up off the cuff that won't matter in two weeks. They know that if they invest their time and energy into actually caring about the game, they'll be rewarded.That's literally why you do any of this. To prove to the players that if they care, if they invest, they will get a better gaming experience. That doesn't mean a infinitely blissful perfect gaming experience. It means a richer, fuller, more interesting one.When someone only uses two examples, consistently, across every post they've made--it doesn't look like "of course there are other ways, I'm just not talking about them." It looks like there are only and exactly two.Then I don't understand why you dispute the Saw comparison. That's literally what those movies are about. Putting people through nightmarish traps that are theoretically survivable, but usually result in death, in a context specifically designed to be terrifying to the people subject to those traps.You can work even with "I want to have fun." It just requires digging a little deeper--asking what things they find fun.If you genuinely want to know, then it behooves you to avoid belittling those trying to explain, and accepting what they say as true even if you don't understand it, rather than characterizing it as foolish or terrible.</blockquote>

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