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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9269436" data-attributes="member: 6684958">They have a fun and enjoyable game.&nbsp; Your looking at it from the Bad Side of &quot;no matter what the players do they loose&quot;.&nbsp; But my game is the Hard Fun game.&nbsp; Players that are intelligent, cautions and thoughtful will have fun.&nbsp; I get all your experience in Old School play was bad....but, oddly, you don't count any of those DMs as &quot;bad gamers&quot; at all, as you say you have never ever met one....right?Guess I'll need to do a definition post sometime.The burden of proof lies on the person making the initial claim, not on the person rebutting that claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you're going to make the strident and pretty dramatic claim that the vast majority of players are lazy idiots, you should probably back that up with a poll. You don't get to spin that around and say, &quot;Well unless YOU have a poll showing I'm wrong, then I must be right.&quot; That's not how discussion works. If Joe claims 50% of humans are naturally blonde, and Sally questions that claim, Joe cannot then argue, &quot;Well, you didn't prove that it's not true, so it has to be true.&quot; Now, if Sally were instead to specifically make a counter-claim like, &quot;Actually, only about 5% of humans are blonde,&quot; then Joe could most certainly ask for the survey data she used to make that claim!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9269436, member: 6684958"] They have a fun and enjoyable game. Your looking at it from the Bad Side of "no matter what the players do they loose". But my game is the Hard Fun game. Players that are intelligent, cautions and thoughtful will have fun. I get all your experience in Old School play was bad....but, oddly, you don't count any of those DMs as "bad gamers" at all, as you say you have never ever met one....right? Guess I'll need to do a definition post sometime. The burden of proof lies on the person making the initial claim, not on the person rebutting that claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you're going to make the strident and pretty dramatic claim that the vast majority of players are lazy idiots, you should probably back that up with a poll. You don't get to spin that around and say, "Well unless YOU have a poll showing I'm wrong, then I must be right." That's not how discussion works. If Joe claims 50% of humans are naturally blonde, and Sally questions that claim, Joe cannot then argue, "Well, [I]you[/I] didn't prove that it's [I]not[/I] true, so it has to be true." Now, if Sally were instead to specifically make a counter-claim like, "Actually, only about 5% of humans are blonde," then Joe could most certainly ask for the survey data she used to make [I]that[/I] claim! [/QUOTE]

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