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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4925672" data-attributes="member: 18280">You misunderstand the statement.A thing as it is and has been, at any given point, is the metric for defining that thing.&nbsp; Prior to 4e, previous editions of D&amp;D are the metric for defining the identity of D&amp;D. Prior to 3e, previous editions of D&amp;D are the metric for defining the identity of D&amp;D. Prior to 2e, previous editions of D&amp;D are the metric for defining the identity of D&amp;D. Prior to 1e, previous editions of D&amp;D are the metric for defining the identity of D&amp;D. Prior to 0e, there is no metric for defining the identity of D&amp;D. That's arguable, especially the &quot;was not shy about telling everyone that&quot;.&nbsp; AFAICT, when 3e came out, WotC was very keen on ensuring that everyone knew that the mechanics from previous editions could easily be converted into 3e (whether that was true or not being, of course, a matter of opinion).Changing the metric always redefines the term.&nbsp; The creation of any new edition of anything alters the meaning of the overarching set to which that thing belongs.&nbsp; This is a matter of logic, and is not an opinion.When Ford comes out with a new Model T, it alters the definition of &quot;Model T&quot;.&nbsp; The success of that redefinition is limited to the acceptance of the name by the public -- nothing more, nothing less.&nbsp; When Rogers Cable renamed the SkyDome to the Rogers Centre, it was an attempt to change the way we view the SkyDome.&nbsp; There is no way to get around this.&nbsp; Some folks will simply not call the SkyDome the &quot;Rogers Centre&quot;, regardless of what the owners want.Cool.&nbsp; Tell me where I can pick up a new 1e PHB.&nbsp; Or a new 2e DMG.&nbsp; Or a new 3e MM.&nbsp; Mine are getting a bit worn.Oh, it is.&nbsp; I am not arguing that it is not.&nbsp; Nor am I arguing that, when someone says &quot;4e is not D&amp;D&quot; you should simply accept it and move on.&nbsp; What I am saying, instead, is that, just as you should not accept &quot;4e is not D&amp;D&quot; without comment just to pretend that this is the best of all possible worlds, someone who really believes that the term is being co-opted shouldn't be forced to accept &quot;4e is D&amp;D&quot; without comment.IOW, Dragonsfoot serves the TSR-D&amp;D community wonderfully, but it doesn't serve the D&amp;D community.&nbsp; Likewise, if a site was created to focus on 4e, it might serve the 4e community wonderfully, but not the D&amp;D community.In the best of all possible worlds, after all, I can believe (and say) that 4e is D&amp;D, and you can believe (and say) that 4e is not D&amp;D, without either one of us believing that the other is an idiot, or feeling that we have to shout each other down.&nbsp; Right?Because otherwise, we are not allowed to discuss what D&amp;D is, and what we believe D&amp;D should be.&nbsp; Understanding why someone doesn't think 4e is D&amp;D is as important to understanding the game as a whole as is understanding why someone else does think 4e, or Basic Fantasy, or OSRIC, is D&amp;D.&nbsp; We limit ourselves to our own predefined horizons when we prevent these sorts of conversations from taking place.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 4925672, member: 18280"] You misunderstand the statement. A thing as it is and has been, at any given point, is the metric for defining that thing. Prior to 4e, previous editions of D&D are the metric for defining the identity of D&D. Prior to 3e, previous editions of D&D are the metric for defining the identity of D&D. Prior to 2e, previous editions of D&D are the metric for defining the identity of D&D. Prior to 1e, previous editions of D&D are the metric for defining the identity of D&D. Prior to 0e, there is no metric for defining the identity of D&D. That's arguable, especially the "was not shy about telling everyone that". AFAICT, when 3e came out, WotC was very keen on ensuring that everyone knew that the mechanics from previous editions could easily be converted into 3e (whether that was true or not being, of course, a matter of opinion). Changing the metric always redefines the term. The creation of any new edition of anything alters the meaning of the overarching set to which that thing belongs. This is a matter of logic, and is not an opinion. When Ford comes out with a new Model T, it alters the definition of "Model T". The success of that redefinition is limited to the acceptance of the name by the public -- nothing more, nothing less. When Rogers Cable renamed the SkyDome to the Rogers Centre, it was an attempt to change the way we view the SkyDome. There is no way to get around this. Some folks will simply not call the SkyDome the "Rogers Centre", regardless of what the owners want. Cool. Tell me where I can pick up a new 1e PHB. Or a new 2e DMG. Or a new 3e MM. Mine are getting a bit worn. Oh, it is. I am not arguing that it is not. Nor am I arguing that, when someone says "4e is not D&D" you should simply accept it and move on. What I am saying, instead, is that, just as you should not accept "4e is not D&D" without comment just to pretend that this is the best of all possible worlds, someone who really believes that the term is being co-opted shouldn't be forced to accept "4e is D&D" without comment. IOW, Dragonsfoot serves the TSR-D&D community wonderfully, but it doesn't serve the [i][b]D&D community[/b][/i][b][/b]. Likewise, if a site was created to focus on 4e, it might serve the 4e community wonderfully, but not the [i][b]D&D community[/b][/i][b][/b]. In the best of all possible worlds, after all, I can believe (and say) that 4e is D&D, and you can believe (and say) that 4e is not D&D, without either one of us believing that the other is an idiot, or feeling that we have to shout each other down. Right? Because otherwise, we are not allowed to discuss what D&D is, and what we believe D&D should be. Understanding why someone doesn't think 4e is D&D is as important to understanding the game as a whole as is understanding why someone else does think 4e, or Basic Fantasy, or OSRIC, is D&D. We limit ourselves to our own predefined horizons when we prevent these sorts of conversations from taking place. RC [/QUOTE]

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