How To Run White Lotus Riposte

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Two questions, given the WLR sort of works like an anti-mark, is it problematic for a defender to take it, namely, a swordmage with the ability to cast only 1 aegis? I find it works well with Sword of Sigilis. But a lot of the other times, the creatures riposited (?) just go and beat on someone else.

Secondly, as a DM, how should it be decided if a creature is willing to attack the PC who has hit it with WLR, given that it will take damage if it does so? Should it be run with the same mind-set as how to run Combat Challenge, Divine Challenge, and the like?

 

[Herschel]

It all depends. You hit the Riposting character when it's beneficial to do so. Look at the Swordmage. One-hand wielding super-high defense swordmages may have enough of a deterrent to being attacked that it's a bad thing, but lower the defenses just a bit and it becomes a tougher choice for teh baddie, which is what it's all about.

Also, what powers does the Swordmage have? Are the encounter slots using teh interrupts and reactions so more at-will attacks will be made and get more mileage out of the riposte?

 

[Garthanos]

Two questions, given the WLR sort of works like an anti-mark, is it problematic for a defender to take it, namely, a swordmage with the ability to cast only 1 aegis? I find it works well with Sword of Sigilis. But a lot of the other times, the creatures riposited (?) just go and beat on someone else.

Secondly, as a DM, how should it be decided if a creature is willing to attack the PC who has hit it with WLR, given that it will take damage if it does so? Should it be run with the same mind-set as how to run Combat Challenge, Divine Challenge, and the like?

Defenders have a damned if you do damned if they dont thing going on.. WLR adds to the scales for damned if you do attack them ... But look at the SM they really gain advantage if the enemy ignores there mark... l you attack my ally but I nerf the damage to hell with a shield and am free to chase one of your sides squishies? or I can blip to where ever you are and out of where ever I am so I can easily get away if my situation has gone bad? or if I want get another attack against you ... wow... bring it on.

Note I actively recommend ignoring or trying to have the characters disregard a defenders mark periodically...even when it isn't strategically correct... mostly for the sake of fun.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

It all depends. You hit the Riposting character when it's beneficial to do so. Look at the Swordmage. One-hand wielding super-high defense swordmages may have enough of a deterrent to being attacked that it's a bad thing, but lower the defenses just a bit and it becomes a tougher choice for teh baddie, which is what it's all about.

Also, what powers does the Swordmage have? Are the encounter slots using teh interrupts and reactions so more at-will attacks will be made and get more mileage out of the riposte?

Well, she has Sword Burst, and Arcane Reach, and she's an Academy Master; she ends up WLR a lot of enemies. There's not really a problem- for her- really, it's just that she gets attacked a lot less as a result, and everyone else gets attacked instead, she's become somewhat of the Anti-defender as a result.

Im just playtesting a group myself, running the party, and I'm just trying
to figure out when she should get attacked by those enemies hit with her WLR, and when they shouldn't, trying to find a "happy medium".

I think I may try 50/50, that is, all else being equal, half of those hit with WLR will attack her, the other half won't.

 

[mneme]

This makes sense, though -- typically, the defender is the one the baddies -want- to ignore if they can, its just that the defender is throwing out marks and interrupts that change this equasion just a bit.

As such, monsters generally should ignore the defender if they're not being prevented from doing so via positioning, marks, etc. Having them do the strategically "wrong" thing some of the time, particularly for unintelligent enemies, make sense, but a lot of the time it's more fun, long term, to play it as it lies. After all, if the swordmage is WLRing a lot of enemeies, that means she's playing damage-based controller -- they either take a lot of damage from her turn after turn, or they split up and spread out -- and in the latter case, that means they're spreading out their damage too -- which is all to the good; most D&D characters can take a single monster's damage reasonably well, so to an extent the controller/defender's job is to prevent the monsters from focus firing and taking people out. As such, by WLRing a pile of enemies, the swordmage is doing her job, just not by absorbing -all- the attacks (just the attacks from her mark, and the guy she has pinned against the wall...).

 

[Garthanos]

Shielding is one of those features so effective that the subject of it will feel reallly frustrated ... they might hope they dont get retaliated against maybe that retaliation effect has faded by now? they dont "know" how it works or that it will happen again after it happened once ... A mark they do know since its an effect on them.... oh rats.... it hasnt faded.

 

[Aulirophile]

How do the monsters know they are going to get WLRed?

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

This makes sense, though -- typically, the defender is the one the baddies -want- to ignore if they can, its just that the defender is throwing out marks and interrupts that change this equasion just a bit.

As such, monsters generally should ignore the defender if they're not being prevented from doing so via positioning, marks, etc. Having them do the strategically "wrong" thing some of the time, particularly for unintelligent enemies, make sense, but a lot of the time it's more fun, long term, to play it as it lies. After all, if the swordmage is WLRing a lot of enemeies, that means she's playing damage-based controller -- they either take a lot of damage from her turn after turn, or they split up and spread out -- and in the latter case, that means they're spreading out their damage too -- which is all to the good; most D&D characters can take a single monster's damage reasonably well, so to an extent the controller/defender's job is to prevent the monsters from focus firing and taking people out. As such, by WLRing a pile of enemies, the swordmage is doing her job, just not by absorbing -all- the attacks (just the attacks from her mark, and the guy she has pinned against the wall...).

Well it's funny that you mention that, because it's not like the party does poorly, it does quite well, divide-and-conquer style. I just think defender= everyone attack me.

Shielding is one of those features so effective that the subject of it will feel reallly frustrated ... they might hope they dont get retaliated against maybe that retaliation effect has faded by now? they dont "know" how it works or that it will happen again after it happened once ... A mark they do know since its an effect on them.... oh rats.... it hasnt faded.

"I hear you," I usually use a "once bitten, twice shy" type-approach" when it comes to shielding effects.

How do the monsters know they are going to get WLRed?

Well, they don't always know, I often make passive knowledge checks for the monsters to know, or I make knowledge checks for the monsters; I'm still trying to "get a feel" how I should run that, as well. But even when they do know, that's when it presents the real dilemma, that is, when they don't know, they will attack until they "catch on." But when they do know, that's the bit of my "sticking point." Bear in mind, I am aware to make certain monsters less brave, when bloodied.

 

[mneme]

Well it's funny that you mention that, because it's not like the party does poorly, it does quite well, divide-and-conquer style. I just think defender= everyone attack me.

Why? Seriously, why?

A defender who has everyone attack them (as opposed to slightly more than their share) stands a good chance of going down. After all, everyone else in the party has HP and surges (and the second wind power) too!

A defender is just a controller who has to risk themselves to control, and as a consequence has better defenses and HP. Basically, there's no melee controller because melee controller = defender. Look at the wizard summons to see this going the other way; a wizard who focuses that way can summon creatures that act -just like a defender-, by upgrading the wizards hp and defenses, and, in the wizard's inevitable style, work at range (from the wizard).

Striker: focus fire, remove actions from the enemy.
Leader: make focus fire better, restore lost actions.
Defender/Controller: prevent the enemy from focus firing.

Well, they don't always know, I often make passive knowledge checks for the monsters to know, or I make knowledge checks for the monsters; I'm still trying to "get a feel" how I should run that, as well.

By RAW, the monsters always know about WLR. It's not a power; it's a rider on your at-wills; by flavor this is something like leaving energy behind that tracks the enemy's movement and lets you zap them as they come in or whatnot. (unlike an immediate interrupt/reaction power, which they'll not usually see coming).

 

[DracoSuave]

Defenders usually have two basic strategies they employ. This is not to comment on the effectiveness of either, but let's go anyways.

1) No one else gets hit.

This is the defender who takes as many hits as he can. His feat choices tend towards defensive feats, and heavier disincentives towards attacking others. The idea is that he's taking abilities that make the opponents want to hit him and not want to hit others. Sword-and-Board fighters exemplify this concept. They're very self-defensive, and rely on tactical shoves pulls and such to make attacks on others very difficult. Shielding Swordmages are best for this as well.

2) Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

This is the more offensive minded defender. If you attack his friend, he's more than happy to punish you with a whack of his heavy sword. If you hit him, he's more than happy to punish you with a whack of his heavy sword. Unlike the above tactic, this style defends by trying to end fights sooner, by using his punishments, and supplimenting them with disincentives to attacking -him-. Eyebite-paladins, assault swordmages, and such exemplify -this- approach.


White Lotus Riposte is, in a defender's context, of the second variety of defender strategy. This style of defender doesn't care if you don't attack him... that just means he can unleash more hell. Go ahead. Hit that guy. I'll waiting for you to do it. Oh, you're coming after me? Well... that was also a mistake.


Defenders aren't only meat-shields. They're very -deep- in terms of the strategies they can employ, and require as much cooperation from their team-mates as do controllers. If your defender's running around trying to catch loose stragglers that are harassing a distant artillery, then you're not using your team's defender to the fullest. And if all the enemies are piling on one guy, even if it's the defender, you're not using your team's defender to the fullest.