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<blockquote data-quote="KesselZero" data-source="post: 5929923" data-attributes="member: 6689976"><p>I think some of this has to do with your DM. Disclaimer: I definitely don't mean this to be any sort of insult or attack on your DM. I've struggled with similar questions as you bring up-- why wouldn't all the monsters just dogpile the PCs?</p><p> </p><p>But there are a lot of other ways for a DM to run monsters than just having them totally dogpile at the first sign of alarm. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it sounded from your description that the rats were tactically aiding the kobolds by stopping your escape. Who's to say that the rats have the intelligence or the inclination to help the kobolds? Maybe they think kobold flesh is tasty and that's why they moved into Cave A, and are just as likely or more to attack weak, delicious kobolds rather than tough, stringy dwarves. In addition, one of those kobold rooms includes lots of children (or it did in the original module; I'm assuming the playtest is the same). Maybe the kobold fighters in that room are guards whose job is to stay there and make a defensive perimeter at any sign of trouble, not go rushing out to leave the children undefended. Maybe the chieftain is a coward who refuses to get involved in fights unless absolutely forced to, and prefers to hide in his room surrounded by guards if he hears the sound of battle. Maybe if you stayed outside the caves, you could fight off the ambushers in the daylight without any other kobolds daring to come attack you because of Mean Mister Sun. Maybe the kobolds send out foraging parties at night, and you could lie in wait to ambush one of those once it got out of earshot of the caves, slowly whittling down the tribe's numbers that way. Maybe if you ran into the goblin caves with kobolds chasing you, all the buggers would start fighting each other and you could slip away. And so on and so on. Again, I don't mean to say that your DM was wrong in the decisions he made, just that there are other ways of running the same setup that are maybe more nuanced, and definitely less lethal. You can make the argument that a DM who makes some of these calls is being unrealistic or soft-hearted, but you're absolutely right that playing a game where every monster group has no tactics except "throw everything at every enemy" is no fun. And speaking to realism (such as it is), kobolds are generally understood to be such weaklings that they've had to survive by cowardice, sneakiness, and trapmaking. Maybe not by a first-level party, but kobolds tend to get stomped in direct conflict. They may refuse to fight off their home turf (where they know where the tricks and traps are), allowing for an escape into the wilderness, or they may retreat into their warrens at the first sign of danger (for much the same reason).</p><p> </p><p>I do agree that there are some mistakes in the playtest docs. Having no shared language with the denizens of the caves is probably one. Mike Mearls admitted that using Wisdom as the rogue's dump stat was a mistake. But there are ways around even the errors, such as nonverbal communication-- putting heads on spikes was one method to try to stir up inter-tribal warfare. The ogre works for money, so surely he understands a sack of coins, even if he doesn't understand common. When I playtested, my wizard was able to sneak up on a room of hobgoblins and blast them with Burning Hands before they knew what was what-- our party had torches at one end of the hallway, the hobgoblins at the other end, creating enough dim light for me to more or less be able to see thanks to my Low-Light Vision. It took some luck, but it worked. Hopefully the errors will be fixed for the next round of playtesting, but in the meantime there are workarounds.</p><p> </p><p>Anyway, I hope I don't come off as all You're Doing It Wrong. That's not what I mean at all. I just mean to say that there are many ways of running the same module, some of which may address the concerns you raise. It's as much, or more, an issue of how the DM chooses to play it as how the players do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KesselZero, post: 5929923, member: 6689976"] I think some of this has to do with your DM. Disclaimer: I definitely don't mean this to be any sort of insult or attack on your DM. I've struggled with similar questions as you bring up-- why wouldn't all the monsters just dogpile the PCs? But there are a lot of other ways for a DM to run monsters than just having them totally dogpile at the first sign of alarm. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it sounded from your description that the rats were tactically aiding the kobolds by stopping your escape. Who's to say that the rats have the intelligence or the inclination to help the kobolds? Maybe they think kobold flesh is tasty and that's why they moved into Cave A, and are just as likely or more to attack weak, delicious kobolds rather than tough, stringy dwarves. In addition, one of those kobold rooms includes lots of children (or it did in the original module; I'm assuming the playtest is the same). Maybe the kobold fighters in that room are guards whose job is to stay there and make a defensive perimeter at any sign of trouble, not go rushing out to leave the children undefended. Maybe the chieftain is a coward who refuses to get involved in fights unless absolutely forced to, and prefers to hide in his room surrounded by guards if he hears the sound of battle. Maybe if you stayed outside the caves, you could fight off the ambushers in the daylight without any other kobolds daring to come attack you because of Mean Mister Sun. Maybe the kobolds send out foraging parties at night, and you could lie in wait to ambush one of those once it got out of earshot of the caves, slowly whittling down the tribe's numbers that way. Maybe if you ran into the goblin caves with kobolds chasing you, all the buggers would start fighting each other and you could slip away. And so on and so on. Again, I don't mean to say that your DM was wrong in the decisions he made, just that there are other ways of running the same setup that are maybe more nuanced, and definitely less lethal. You can make the argument that a DM who makes some of these calls is being unrealistic or soft-hearted, but you're absolutely right that playing a game where every monster group has no tactics except "throw everything at every enemy" is no fun. And speaking to realism (such as it is), kobolds are generally understood to be such weaklings that they've had to survive by cowardice, sneakiness, and trapmaking. Maybe not by a first-level party, but kobolds tend to get stomped in direct conflict. They may refuse to fight off their home turf (where they know where the tricks and traps are), allowing for an escape into the wilderness, or they may retreat into their warrens at the first sign of danger (for much the same reason). I do agree that there are some mistakes in the playtest docs. Having no shared language with the denizens of the caves is probably one. Mike Mearls admitted that using Wisdom as the rogue's dump stat was a mistake. But there are ways around even the errors, such as nonverbal communication-- putting heads on spikes was one method to try to stir up inter-tribal warfare. The ogre works for money, so surely he understands a sack of coins, even if he doesn't understand common. When I playtested, my wizard was able to sneak up on a room of hobgoblins and blast them with Burning Hands before they knew what was what-- our party had torches at one end of the hallway, the hobgoblins at the other end, creating enough dim light for me to more or less be able to see thanks to my Low-Light Vision. It took some luck, but it worked. Hopefully the errors will be fixed for the next round of playtesting, but in the meantime there are workarounds. Anyway, I hope I don't come off as all You're Doing It Wrong. That's not what I mean at all. I just mean to say that there are many ways of running the same module, some of which may address the concerns you raise. It's as much, or more, an issue of how the DM chooses to play it as how the players do. [/QUOTE]
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