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<blockquote data-quote="Emirikol" data-source="post: 3488058" data-attributes="member: 10638">I hear you.&nbsp; I left traditional D&amp;D a few years ago to play a lower cheeze D&amp;D.&nbsp; I played some LG (living greyhawk for those ofyou who don't know), this past weekend and re-discovered the cheeze.&nbsp; Now it's REALLY moldy cheeze and all the expansion sales-tactic-books in the world have not helped the situation.&nbsp; They've made it worse.Many players, whilst having a GREAT TIME playing regular D&amp;D, are of little help because we/they tend to think that regular D&amp;D is somehow normal.&nbsp; It's not.&nbsp; There's actually a lot of cheeze.&nbsp; A lot of that cheeze is fun, and has been fun in the past, but some folks seem to be ready to move beyond the cheeze and either get down to basics of swords &amp; sorcery or to re-exeperience what D&amp;D was before they learned/became-trained-to munchinize/powergame the whole bit..just like I was.A lot of this problem has to do with the scenarios...the more entrenched the D&amp;Disms, the harder it is to convert.D&amp;D cheeze is the D&amp;Disms.&nbsp; Things that represent the &quot;culture&quot; of munchkinism in D&amp;D.&nbsp; Things that represent power-mongering in D&amp;D.&nbsp; Things that represent &quot;illogical unrealisms&quot; and &quot;self indulgence&quot; are some of the D&amp;Disms.&nbsp; Sure, they feel good, but some want to move to a more &quot;realistic&quot; type of game.I know some autistic gamers have a kniption when anyone mentions &quot;unrealism,&quot; but let's face the facts shall we?I'm going to start a top 100 list, that will be frequently be broken up in posts with prases like someone like me would post <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; , &quot;ISNOHMIHOd20Y (I'm surprised no one has mentioned Iron Heroes or d20 modern yet)&quot; or &quot;I can't find my dictionary, thus we all have different definitions,&quot; or &quot;It' syour game you do what you want,&quot; or &quot;if you don't play high magic, your a jerk who's pushing low magic down my throat,&quot; or &quot;I agree with everyone who is attacking this guy, but I want to fight it out with someone who isn't attacking him correctly,&quot; or &quot;here's some kind of arguing falliciious terminology that shows how pompous I can be by pointing it out,&quot; or &quot;I don't think D&amp;D is cheezy and here's why...&quot; or &quot;Hey, I agree, let's have fun with this.&quot;&nbsp; The last two people are the ones that I personally find helpful <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So, here's the d20 list of D&amp;D cheezeisms that complicate scenario modification:1.&nbsp; All EL's are balanced and no PC should ever feel threatened because the rules say so.2.&nbsp; Since we all know the monster manual so well, we should all blurt out the monster name and weknesses as soon as the DM describes it..whether our character would know that or not.3.&nbsp; What?&nbsp; No magic items?&nbsp; I don't think I'd like your game..I think I'd shy away from your game.&nbsp; Don't you know, D&amp;D's not balanced unless you get 150% of the max wealth chart.4.&nbsp; ..but I have this prestige class....5.&nbsp; Does anybody think this is a kick-butt character or what?&nbsp; Strength 28....6.&nbsp; EPIC RULES!7.&nbsp; Beholders, Drow, half-anything, ghost-touch-anything, etc.8.&nbsp; The DM should do all the work, afterall he can't play without players!9.&nbsp; RAW and no other way or the DM is 'cheating' who cares if he's just trying to challenge our munchkin party10. SCENARIO STUFF:&nbsp; There must be one of every species of PC character sprinkled throughout the scenario11. Rather than make an interesting combat, the encounter relys on each creature's maximum firepower..like some kind of video game12. Hey, it's a gothic encoutner, there must be undead13.&nbsp; Humans are boring (see #11)14. Help me out here <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />jhPart of D&amp;D cheezeisms is the same old arguments that I dredge up that we've all seen in the past.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Emirikol, post: 3488058, member: 10638"] I hear you. I left traditional D&D a few years ago to play a lower cheeze D&D. I played some LG (living greyhawk for those ofyou who don't know), this past weekend and re-discovered the cheeze. Now it's REALLY moldy cheeze and all the expansion sales-tactic-books in the world have not helped the situation. They've made it worse. Many players, whilst having a GREAT TIME playing regular D&D, are of little help because we/they tend to think that regular D&D is somehow normal. It's not. There's actually a lot of cheeze. A lot of that cheeze is fun, and has been fun in the past, but some folks seem to be ready to move beyond the cheeze and either get down to basics of swords & sorcery or to re-exeperience what D&D was before they learned/became-trained-to munchinize/powergame the whole bit..just like I was. [B]A lot of this problem has to do with the scenarios...the more entrenched the D&Disms, the harder it is to convert.[/B] D&D cheeze is the D&Disms. Things that represent the "culture" of munchkinism in D&D. Things that represent power-mongering in D&D. Things that represent "illogical unrealisms" and "self indulgence" are some of the D&Disms. Sure, they feel good, but some want to move to a more "realistic" type of game. I know some autistic gamers have a kniption when anyone mentions "unrealism," but let's face the facts shall we? I'm going to start a top 100 list, that will be frequently be broken up in posts with prases like someone like me would post :) , "ISNOHMIHOd20Y (I'm surprised no one has mentioned Iron Heroes or d20 modern yet)" or "I can't find my dictionary, thus we all have different definitions," or "It' syour game you do what you want," or "if you don't play high magic, your a jerk who's pushing low magic down my throat," or "I agree with everyone who is attacking this guy, but I want to fight it out with someone who isn't attacking him correctly," or "here's some kind of arguing falliciious terminology that shows how pompous I can be by pointing it out," or "I don't think D&D is cheezy and here's why..." or "Hey, I agree, let's have fun with this." The last two people are the ones that I personally find helpful :) So, here's the d20 list of D&D cheezeisms that complicate scenario modification: 1. All EL's are balanced and no PC should ever feel threatened because the rules say so. 2. Since we all know the monster manual so well, we should all blurt out the monster name and weknesses as soon as the DM describes it..whether our character would know that or not. 3. What? No magic items? I don't think I'd like your game..I think I'd shy away from your game. Don't you know, D&D's not balanced unless you get 150% of the max wealth chart. 4. ..but I have this prestige class.... 5. Does anybody think this is a kick-butt character or what? Strength 28.... 6. EPIC RULES! 7. Beholders, Drow, half-anything, ghost-touch-anything, etc. 8. The DM should do all the work, afterall he can't play without players! 9. RAW and no other way or the DM is 'cheating' who cares if he's just trying to challenge our munchkin party 10. SCENARIO STUFF: There must be one of every species of PC character sprinkled throughout the scenario 11. Rather than make an interesting combat, the encounter relys on each creature's maximum firepower..like some kind of video game 12. Hey, it's a gothic encoutner, there must be undead 13. Humans are boring (see #11) 14. Help me out here ;) jh Part of D&D cheezeisms is the same old arguments that I dredge up that we've all seen in the past. :) [/QUOTE]

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