Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 7160839" data-attributes="member: 2011">Yup. ONLY at third level (until level 8). I skimmed through that. My bad.And?It doesn't change much. Sure, he can get 80 feet away in a given round as long as he can keep ER up and is not knocked prone or grabbed or TKed (120 if he risks OA attacks). If he gets too far away, the NPCs just go wait and ambush him.On the other hand, the Githyanki could put him in the TK grab, hold him 5 feet off the ground where the other two foes can attack him, and he couldn't move at all. Every round, the Githyanki tries to put him back into the TK grab if he ever gets out. And to get out, he uses up part or all of his attack action.Yes, I do not know every single rule for specialized PCs off the top of my head, but if I were DMing this PC and I did prep such a battle, I would be much more familiar with these rules. This changes little. He would still get his ass handed to him in any scenario where he doesn't start outside of normal encounter start ranges.Yes, he has a lot of mobility options and yes there are a few scenarios where he can survive by running and kiting.But you are totally missing the point. It's not that you cannot create a PC that might be able to survive in such a situation, it's that such a PC is so focused on defense and survival that he is subpar in combat to most other builds (and no matter what build you make, the DM can p--s in your corn flakes). Defense infrequently trumps offense.D&D is not played in an MMO solo player vacuum. It is played with a group of players with PCs. With a typically 4 or 5 party group, this guy hanging in the back kiting means that other PCs are getting attacked instead. Sure, he is personally defensive (mostly because he is hanging back). But he doesn't protect his fellow PCs much. He doesn't heal them. He doesn't take hits for them. And if he is up and taking hits, he is typically not using either of his two feats.He shifts enemy attacks to the other PCs and he does this as a Fighter. Other PCs that hang back like Mages and Lore Bards and such do control, or more damage, or bring in pets, or something. They shift action economy. This guy just shoots a bow and might manage 15 or so points of damage (2 normal hits or 1 -5/+10) in a given round. The GMW Fighter typically manages more than that as does the Sharpshooter Ranger (typically 5 to 7 more points of damage). This guy is not really that impressive from a party perspective giving that he has two feats.Even a Valor Bard could do nearly as much damage per round, but brings much more to the party (and Valor Bards are considered a little wimpy until level 10 with Swift Quiver). One could even be a Valor Bard that moves in, knocks a foe down, giving the other melee PCs advantage and getting advantage himself on an attack (and giving disadvantage to your ranged PC) and bring more to the table.The Sharpshooter Ranger also hangs back, but he brings a lot more to the table. He does a lot more damage (Hunter's Mark and usually Colossus Slayer), he brings scouting and more skills to the party, and he has one area affect spell at level 5 and minor healing.No doubt. This PC you describe is awesome at long range kiting. But kiting might be 5% of all encounters at most tables.Most encounters are with a group of PCs fighting a group of NPCs in melee and not at long range (otherwise, the melee PC players would feel useless) and this particular PC would usually end up helping out less than a simple Champion melee fighter. He does bring two minor things to the table. He can chase down a foe that is trying to run away. And one or two times a day, he can go in solo against a tough foe and soak up some attacks with a Shield spell. Other than that, he actually has less utility than most other Fighters. He's basically a suppar warrior PC action economy-wise. And unlike many other class builds, he doesn't bring much in the way of skills or other abilities to the party either.That's what happens when somebody puts too many eggs in one basket. This guy is super defensive and mobile, but he's not that great of a party PC. He's meh. Not good. Not bad. But definitely not a team player. Creating a warrior PC designed to attack from range and avoid melee means that someone else in the group is usually taking more attacks. And that isn't necessarily a terrible thing. Many players play for the concept and are more concerned with roleplaying than combat. But from a combat perspective, this guy is meh. Many other builds bring more to the table.In other words, you CAN create a PC that is super mobile and hangs back with ranged attacks. But when you do so, you typically weaken the overall effectiveness of the party as a whole (only talking combat here). Those few extra attacks that other PCs are soaking up means more frequent short rests, more healing spells used, possibly even unconscious PCs which shifts action economy, etc. All in all, more party resources expended while this guy sits out each short rest not using up many of his hit dice because he hangs back and rarely gets attacked. Sure, he can move up. But even then, he is not as good at fighting in melee as other melee built fighters or monks or barbarians or paladins. They may be +1/+1 to hit and damage over him, they might have a shield already prepared (he typically does not), they tend to do more damage per attack and have Maneuvers or some other melee advantage, and/or they might have a feat that improves their melee. He has the option to go into melee, but he averages less damage then the Cleric who goes into melee with Spiritual Guardians up. Many if not most melee builds are better.On the other hand, creating a PC that is super offensive tends to help a party more. Foes fall quicker before him and action economy shifts in the party's direction faster. An Eldritch Knight with GWM would typically help out a party more than the PC you proposed and would still have room for another feat or an 18 Str (or other racial abilities).Offense typically trumps defense.PS. In a TPK or near TPK situation, your EK would probably survive and might be able to drive off (or lead away) remaining foes in large combat areas such that maybe a few of the other PCs might make their death saving throws and survive as well. He is not totally useless, his strengths are just rarely as useful as the strengths of many other PC builds. TPKs don't usually happen.This is not much different than the high AC fighter discussions. Yeah, someone could make a PC with super high AC. The problem is that while doing that, their PC isn't typically doing a lot of damage or control, and NPCs avoid him to attack other PCs which actually hurts the party resource-wise overall. Many NPCs tend to attack PCs that are doing nasty stuff. They focus on Wizards/Bards/Sorcerers and Rogues and Clerics with Spiritual Guardians up. They typically do not focus on PC tanks (unless the tank is also doing a lot of nasty stuff). At least IME.As a simple example, the Eldritch Knight is hanging back shooting arrows. A monster gets in his face. He swings his sword twice and moves away. The monster decides to go fight the Wizard instead. Oops. Typically, a fighter would be better off staying put and protecting the other PCs. In this case, if the EK stays put, it takes him longer to take out his foe than another more balanced or offensively build fighter, and his defensive abilities are actually no better than another fighter (i.e. his AC is usually the same or lower). Even his hit points might be lower (since he probably put quite a few build points into both Dex and Str in order to be able to be semi-effective in both melee and ranged attacks, he has fewer build points for Con).You are the one who made the claim that it was the opposite of what Cap'n Kobold said. Err, no. Offense typically trumps. Building for defense just means that attacks shift more often to the other PCs. And the PC you made isn't really that defensive. He's mobile and he sometimes has the option of doing decent damage. The only really defensive thing about him is that he doesn't take an OA if he melee attacks a foe and moves away. Other than that, he is actually less defensive then most fighters (lower AC and/or lower hit points in many cases). Unless you consider him hanging in the back as part of his defensive ability. Some players think that way. They rarely get attacked, so they are defensive. Meh. A good DM makes sure that this is not always the case.</blockquote>

Verification