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How viable is 5E to play at high levels?
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<blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 7209173" data-attributes="member: 6855114"><p>Welcome to my world. We tried both approach with two groups.</p><p>That was back in first days of D&D 5ed. Its kinda of a tradition for us to make a high level group with all editions. Just to see where we will get at.</p><p>The first time, we put in everything. And I mean everything. Be it from the PHB or the DMG. Boy was I overcome with what I thought to be the worst edition ever. Players had no trouble at all. Be mindful though that we were straigth from 4ed with some bias. A few session later. We tried the featless and optionless way. All things went relatively smooth. </p><p></p><p>The players all decided to play it with feats and I started to use a few modified version of the monsters. That is what I thought was necessary to give some challenge to the players. That is where I created the BBEG monster modifier that I shared in an other post. I really thought that it was necessary. After a while, I stopped using the BBEG Monster Mod because I started to enforce the 6 to 8 encounters per day and experience in 5ed thought me a few tricks to avoid the nova style play.</p><p></p><p>5ed entry curve for a DM is the smoothest ever done. I have seen many games in many editions and this one really hits the mark for the learning curve in the begining. But as the game evolves, player wise and especialy in higher levels; The DM learning curve rises by leaps and bounds. People comming from 3ed and 4ed are particularly vulnerable to this should I say "flaw"?</p><p></p><p>What we all have to remember is that the game assumes 4 players with standard array, no options in the DMG and (not the least) no feats. Even the backgrounds are optional. If you do not play with any of these, the games works out fine at all levels. The more options you add, the more work the DM will have to do in preparations to challenge the players. The stronger the players, the more ruthless you will need to be. If the group is bigger than four, then you have to adjust monsters number accordingly. Even the legendary actions of monster should be adjusted. Why? Again the game assumes 4 players, 3 legendary actions... I am sure that you see where I am going. Legendary actions should have been written number of characters minus one. So 6 players, 5 legendary actions. This is the only thing I kept from the BBEG Monster Mod.</p><p></p><p>Again, is that a design flaw? I am not really sure. After all I am only human. At best I'd say that this is a sad oversight. So far, exeption made for the above, I can play the game right out of the box without heavy modifications. Encounter building at high level has always been tricky. I remember a Lich being neutralized with one spell in 1ed. A dragon slain by one conjurer with a horde of lantern archons in 3ed. And so on. Heck, I even killed the avatar a god in the "Role Master RPG" with an astronomical crit of 900% (sometimes luck is on your side...) only to die to a goblin that overcame my -300% protection vs arrows... It is our jobs as DM to make sure that the challenge is up to the players' expectations. That good sirs, takes some works. </p><p></p><p>Side note: "I quite remember the fight that was refered to earlier. From my point of view, the fight was done correctly with what the vilains knew. Were they played optimaly? Nope, but everyone, even vilains can make a mistake. With hindsight I am sure that the fight would've been led by CapnZapp quite differently. Taking that as an example was not really sporting. not unfair, but not quite sporting."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Helldritch, post: 7209173, member: 6855114"] Welcome to my world. We tried both approach with two groups. That was back in first days of D&D 5ed. Its kinda of a tradition for us to make a high level group with all editions. Just to see where we will get at. The first time, we put in everything. And I mean everything. Be it from the PHB or the DMG. Boy was I overcome with what I thought to be the worst edition ever. Players had no trouble at all. Be mindful though that we were straigth from 4ed with some bias. A few session later. We tried the featless and optionless way. All things went relatively smooth. The players all decided to play it with feats and I started to use a few modified version of the monsters. That is what I thought was necessary to give some challenge to the players. That is where I created the BBEG monster modifier that I shared in an other post. I really thought that it was necessary. After a while, I stopped using the BBEG Monster Mod because I started to enforce the 6 to 8 encounters per day and experience in 5ed thought me a few tricks to avoid the nova style play. 5ed entry curve for a DM is the smoothest ever done. I have seen many games in many editions and this one really hits the mark for the learning curve in the begining. But as the game evolves, player wise and especialy in higher levels; The DM learning curve rises by leaps and bounds. People comming from 3ed and 4ed are particularly vulnerable to this should I say "flaw"? What we all have to remember is that the game assumes 4 players with standard array, no options in the DMG and (not the least) no feats. Even the backgrounds are optional. If you do not play with any of these, the games works out fine at all levels. The more options you add, the more work the DM will have to do in preparations to challenge the players. The stronger the players, the more ruthless you will need to be. If the group is bigger than four, then you have to adjust monsters number accordingly. Even the legendary actions of monster should be adjusted. Why? Again the game assumes 4 players, 3 legendary actions... I am sure that you see where I am going. Legendary actions should have been written number of characters minus one. So 6 players, 5 legendary actions. This is the only thing I kept from the BBEG Monster Mod. Again, is that a design flaw? I am not really sure. After all I am only human. At best I'd say that this is a sad oversight. So far, exeption made for the above, I can play the game right out of the box without heavy modifications. Encounter building at high level has always been tricky. I remember a Lich being neutralized with one spell in 1ed. A dragon slain by one conjurer with a horde of lantern archons in 3ed. And so on. Heck, I even killed the avatar a god in the "Role Master RPG" with an astronomical crit of 900% (sometimes luck is on your side...) only to die to a goblin that overcame my -300% protection vs arrows... It is our jobs as DM to make sure that the challenge is up to the players' expectations. That good sirs, takes some works. Side note: "I quite remember the fight that was refered to earlier. From my point of view, the fight was done correctly with what the vilains knew. Were they played optimaly? Nope, but everyone, even vilains can make a mistake. With hindsight I am sure that the fight would've been led by CapnZapp quite differently. Taking that as an example was not really sporting. not unfair, but not quite sporting." [/QUOTE]
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