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How viable is 5E to play at high levels?
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<blockquote data-quote="Schmoe" data-source="post: 7211071" data-attributes="member: 913"><p>Ok, but what about the case where there is no mechanical benefit to a monster? What if I give an Ogre an Int of 14. Is that worth a CR increase? How should I quantify the differences in how the Ogre performs in an encounter? And why are we limiting this to a discussion of Int? If I increased a Lich's strength to 18, it's unlikely that I would increase it's CR, as that has no mechanical effect on its combat ability. Likewise, what if you increased an Ogre's Wisdom? What if you increased an Ogre's Charisma? I can think of all sorts of things that might play out slightly differently based on different stat abilities, but there is no way to measure the impact on combat ability, and therefore it really doesn't seem like it should have any bearing on Challenge Rating. </p><p></p><p>All of the other "flavor" or "tactical" affects of stats are so dependent on the DM, that they may as well not exist and can't reasonably be assumed in any sort of CR guidelines. Some DMs are simply tactical illiterates. Should the CR guidelines "over CR" straightforward brutes with the assumption that people don't know how to use tactics? Some DMs can't avoid using solid tactics even for a Black Pudding. Should the CR guidelines "over CR" creatures with strong tactical abilities and battlefield control? Some DMs like to vary tactics based on monster intellect and also have the capability to do so. Should the CR guidelines "over CR" intelligent monsters who, with an otherwise identical stat block, will outperform their less-intelligent counterparts?</p><p></p><p>I think the only approach that really makes any sense is to have CR guidelines that are based on mechanical effects, because those are the effects that can be measured and compared unequivocally (I say unequivocally with a huge grain of salt). And then you can have a good discussion of how to inject tactics where it's appropriate, with the understanding that tactics won't and shouldn't impact the baseline CR or XP numbers except where a particular DM decides it is appropriate in his game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Schmoe, post: 7211071, member: 913"] Ok, but what about the case where there is no mechanical benefit to a monster? What if I give an Ogre an Int of 14. Is that worth a CR increase? How should I quantify the differences in how the Ogre performs in an encounter? And why are we limiting this to a discussion of Int? If I increased a Lich's strength to 18, it's unlikely that I would increase it's CR, as that has no mechanical effect on its combat ability. Likewise, what if you increased an Ogre's Wisdom? What if you increased an Ogre's Charisma? I can think of all sorts of things that might play out slightly differently based on different stat abilities, but there is no way to measure the impact on combat ability, and therefore it really doesn't seem like it should have any bearing on Challenge Rating. All of the other "flavor" or "tactical" affects of stats are so dependent on the DM, that they may as well not exist and can't reasonably be assumed in any sort of CR guidelines. Some DMs are simply tactical illiterates. Should the CR guidelines "over CR" straightforward brutes with the assumption that people don't know how to use tactics? Some DMs can't avoid using solid tactics even for a Black Pudding. Should the CR guidelines "over CR" creatures with strong tactical abilities and battlefield control? Some DMs like to vary tactics based on monster intellect and also have the capability to do so. Should the CR guidelines "over CR" intelligent monsters who, with an otherwise identical stat block, will outperform their less-intelligent counterparts? I think the only approach that really makes any sense is to have CR guidelines that are based on mechanical effects, because those are the effects that can be measured and compared unequivocally (I say unequivocally with a huge grain of salt). And then you can have a good discussion of how to inject tactics where it's appropriate, with the understanding that tactics won't and shouldn't impact the baseline CR or XP numbers except where a particular DM decides it is appropriate in his game. [/QUOTE]
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