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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 381897" data-attributes="member: 4937">Corwin: So if I understand what you are saying it is:1) Not every Tom, Dick and Harry is going to take the most powerful class available.2) If someone were to give the Aristocrat full BAB bonus, no one would take the warrior class.Aren't those two positions direct contridictions?Either the Warrior is still a viable class no matter how many classes are superior to it, or it is not.&nbsp; You can't have it both ways.And for the record, the Warrior's inclusion in 3ed. is to be backwards compatible with earlier editions.&nbsp; It's to allow 1st level Orcs and Hobgoblins to still be cannon fodder.&nbsp;&nbsp; I personally was disgusted by that back in 1st edition, and though 3rd has made great great strides, I personally don't think it has gone far enough.Warrior is a still a marginally useful class.&nbsp; It represents a commoner in a martial society.&nbsp; It represents someone without training but who has had to face and deal out violence to survive.&nbsp; But that is about all it is good for.&nbsp; The idea that there are standing armies of warriors, high level warriors, and so forth is pretty ridiculous if you ask me because it suggests that for some reason people with attributes just like other people must enherently accept an inferior class just because those other people are 'better' than them.As far as turning the Aristo into a PC class, one way is to simply give it d10 HD and fighter BAB.&nbsp; Then it is a variant fighter that exchanges skills for feats - something that doesn't really exist in the core classes at present.&nbsp; Going the other way towards lower HD and more skills isn't all that interesting to me, because the Aristo would then not be terribly different from an Expert which is in turn not all that different from a rogue with fewer class abilities.&nbsp; And I'm skeptical of the notion of automatically gaining social feats since that tends to contridict the setting frequently, but it would not be so bad to make the Aristocrat a variant rogue that exchanged rogue class abilities for bonus feats from a short list of Aristocratic feats.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 381897, member: 4937"] Corwin: So if I understand what you are saying it is: 1) Not every Tom, Dick and Harry is going to take the most powerful class available. 2) If someone were to give the Aristocrat full BAB bonus, no one would take the warrior class. Aren't those two positions direct contridictions? Either the Warrior is still a viable class no matter how many classes are superior to it, or it is not. You can't have it both ways. And for the record, the Warrior's inclusion in 3ed. is to be backwards compatible with earlier editions. It's to allow 1st level Orcs and Hobgoblins to still be cannon fodder. I personally was disgusted by that back in 1st edition, and though 3rd has made great great strides, I personally don't think it has gone far enough. Warrior is a still a marginally useful class. It represents a commoner in a martial society. It represents someone without training but who has had to face and deal out violence to survive. But that is about all it is good for. The idea that there are standing armies of warriors, high level warriors, and so forth is pretty ridiculous if you ask me because it suggests that for some reason people with attributes just like other people must enherently accept an inferior class just because those other people are 'better' than them. As far as turning the Aristo into a PC class, one way is to simply give it d10 HD and fighter BAB. Then it is a variant fighter that exchanges skills for feats - something that doesn't really exist in the core classes at present. Going the other way towards lower HD and more skills isn't all that interesting to me, because the Aristo would then not be terribly different from an Expert which is in turn not all that different from a rogue with fewer class abilities. And I'm skeptical of the notion of automatically gaining social feats since that tends to contridict the setting frequently, but it would not be so bad to make the Aristocrat a variant rogue that exchanged rogue class abilities for bonus feats from a short list of Aristocratic feats. [/QUOTE]

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