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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PlotDevice" data-source="post: 1625702" data-attributes="member: 20042">Bard, cleric, bard/clericConsider that the core adventuring group consists of 4 characters (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) it is not suprising that these four character classes are min/maxed to their roles. The fact that the cleric occupies the rank of 2nd best combatant, second best spell caster and only healer means that, of course, they are more powerful in terms of sheed unadalterated game stats. The  secondary character classes each suffer from non-min/max-ing in that they don't get as much fundamental power in one area, but get diversity. Sometimes pure power is the biggest advantage, sometimes multiskilling. Them is the breaks. But what most this talk is highlighting for me is the social cost of the character classes. And by that I mean the fundamental gurps-type disadvantages of the main character classes.Note the references to not wanting to play clerics. Why? Two reasons: (1) their role in combat is to fight till someone gets hurt then heal friends (BORING), and (2) because clerics have mental and social disadvantages implicit in their write-up. In DnD this is invisible from a rules perspective, but it is there regardless.Bards have NO implicit social or mental disadvantages, and have the greatest social power of any character class because they are the character class with the highest skill points that focuses on Charisma as their primary stat. Sure, you can play a social rogue, with better skill points and focusing on your charisma, but they are then not likely to be that great a rogue when it comes to doing the classic rogue role in a dungeon. The bard class' natural inclination and role is a social one. Upping their power in any way (save to give them free performance of choice at max rank (because they are going to anyway)) seems superfluous to me.So. In a dungeon bash, for your five party team, make your fifth person another warrior/mage. In a city, make them a bard, every time. To try to substitute any of the core four classes for your first four players will change the style and balance of your game, guarenteed. And that can be fun too...Anecdote: three players: fighter/rogue, ranger/mage, cleric/bard. Cleric/bard ended up using the bard powers for the most of the fun stuff in the game, but upping the cleric levels primarily for personal power reasons. Still, use of the bard spells and abilities alway created the most socially enjoyable situations (seducing bad guys lieutenants, making people hear or see things not there, performing for demons, etc). But when it came down to it, we just needed someone to raise the dead more.Evan</blockquote>

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