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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kalendraf" data-source="post: 1626533" data-attributes="member: 3433">IMHO, the cleric is overpowered, but as someone above pointed out, that may be done purely to entice people to play this class.  I've had some difficulty getting players in my campaigns to play clerics, even though they are obviously powerful characters.  Personally, I'd like to see the hit dice dropped from d8 to d6, and knock their armor down to medium profiency instead of heavy.  Combined, I think those two changes might be enough to bring them into line with the other classes.As for the bard, I don't think it needs any changing.  IMHO, bards aren't anywhere near the weakest class, and are actually somewhere in the middle when compared to the other classes, and their bad rep comes from people just don't know how to play them properly.  If someone insists on changing them, I think the only sensible way to do that is to revamp their bard songs/spell lists and perhaps make them into a single coherent form of sound magic.As someone above mentioned, Monte Cook attempted to do this in BoEM2 with his bard variant.  Sadly, that version of the bard is very unbalanced at high levels.  My group found in playtesting that it was more powerful than all other classes in terms of damage potential.  The main issue was a couple of the low-level damage "notes" in combination with one of the the special music feats (IIRC, Intensify) which become way too good together at the higher levels.  I think Monte's bard was a fantastic effort at differentiating how magic works for the bard, but it needs more refinement to keep it balanced.Note - The BoEM books have been updated for 3.5, but I don't own those, so perhaps Monte addressed some of these concerns with the revision.</blockquote>

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