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<blockquote data-quote="Will" data-source="post: 1628823" data-attributes="member: 5566">I don't think anyone mentioned the big area where bards beat just about everybody, hands down...magic items.A bard has a relatively broad spell list, that includes a mixture of cleric-like and wizard/sorcerer-like spells. A bard can use a wand of Web, a Staff of Evocation (I think), and a wand of cure light wounds.In addition, with Use Magic Device, the bard has a good chance of using, oh, druid items and the like. A cleric with Magic domain has some advantages with magic item, but the lack of UMD class skill still limits them.Expendable and one-shot magic items seem to be a realm that most players typically avoid, but there is a huge amount of potential power here.Other areas of bardic power... Glibness is a biggie.Esthetically, I agree with previous posters. I think bardic singing should have been integrated with spells, so that verbal components are singing, with somatic either being dance or playing an instrument. Bards would then, oh, require both hands for somatic components, and are required to have a verbal or somatic component for all spells. A bard with Still and Silent spell could apply one, but not both, to a spell with V and S components.That isn't a matter of power, though.Another problem with bards is that some abilities (I'm looking at you, bardic knowledge) often become all or nothing... but then I have that problem with knowledge skills, too..As for clerics, I'm not sure what I'd do. They are powerful and versatile. A player interested in creating a warrior might be tempted to go the war cleric route. On the other hand, the power of feats is also tempting for pure fighter, and so forth.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Will, post: 1628823, member: 5566"] I don't think anyone mentioned the big area where bards beat just about everybody, hands down... magic items. A bard has a relatively broad spell list, that includes a mixture of cleric-like and wizard/sorcerer-like spells. A bard can use a wand of Web, a Staff of Evocation (I think), and a wand of cure light wounds. In addition, with Use Magic Device, the bard has a good chance of using, oh, druid items and the like. A cleric with Magic domain has some advantages with magic item, but the lack of UMD class skill still limits them. Expendable and one-shot magic items seem to be a realm that most players typically avoid, but there is a huge amount of potential power here. Other areas of bardic power... Glibness is a biggie. Esthetically, I agree with previous posters. I think bardic singing should have been integrated with spells, so that verbal components are singing, with somatic either being dance or playing an instrument. Bards would then, oh, require both hands for somatic components, and are required to have a verbal or somatic component for all spells. A bard with Still and Silent spell could apply one, but not both, to a spell with V and S components. That isn't a matter of power, though. Another problem with bards is that some abilities (I'm looking at you, bardic knowledge) often become all or nothing... but then I have that problem with knowledge skills, too.. As for clerics, I'm not sure what I'd do. They are powerful and versatile. A player interested in creating a warrior might be tempted to go the war cleric route. On the other hand, the power of feats is also tempting for pure fighter, and so forth. [/QUOTE]

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