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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9039414" data-attributes="member: 7006">I don't agree with this point, because it assumes the player is playing with an unthinking Dungeon Master who doesn't put any effort into determining DCs and it just selecting them by rote... basically nothing more than computer game.Any DM with a knowledge of the game (and I think we can all agree that DMs should be learning the game they are running) knows that a skill check will normally give a PC 2-6 higher points than an ability check alone (the proficiency bonus).&nbsp; The DM can take this into account when they set a DC for a check.&nbsp; An ability check that does not have an applicable skill attached can have a different DC given to it than a skill check for which a proficiency could be applied.A climbing check that would be STR (Athletics)?&nbsp; The DM could make it DC 15.&nbsp; A bend bars check for which it would be STR alone?&nbsp; DC 12.&nbsp; And this ability for DMs to select DCs as appropriate for their tables is the hallmark of the game (in my opnion.)You know who are the people who don't like this though?&nbsp; Those players out there who keep wishing for a much larger chart of DCs that cover almost every single thing there possibly is to do.&nbsp; As though the thought is that the world has a set definition for what doing every single thing is for every character across every single campaign across every single setting. They want and need a &quot;universal system&quot; of Difficulty Classes.But to me... that just removes any need for a Dungeon Master!&nbsp; At that point yeah, you could just use a computer.&nbsp; &quot;Climb a 17 foot wall with 1/2 inch handholds one hour before sunrise after a light rain in October on the south side of the cliff face...&quot; tick tick tick... modifier modifier modifier... checking... checking... checking... DING!&nbsp; DC 18.75.&quot;That game is in my opinion a waste of time.&nbsp; Instead... an actual thinking DM can just look at the baseline chart of DCs... decide what the action ultimate is in the gradient of easy-moderate-hard-very hard... know whether they are asking for an ability check by itself or an ability check with possible skill application... and then just select a DC out of thin air that they think might best fit.&nbsp; And it doesn't have to be any sort of &quot;exact&quot;, because the check is going to come and go immediately after its rolled and will forgotten about 10 seconds from now once the story progresses past that point anyway.&nbsp; So what the DC was will not be remembered and not be concerned about after that... so why go nutso trying to create the perfect one?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9039414, member: 7006"] I don't agree with this point, because it assumes the player is playing with an unthinking Dungeon Master who doesn't put any effort into determining DCs and it just selecting them by rote... basically nothing more than computer game. Any DM with a knowledge of the game (and I think we can all agree that DMs [I]should[/I] be learning the game they are running) knows that a skill check will normally give a PC 2-6 higher points than an ability check alone (the proficiency bonus). The DM can take this into account when they set a DC for a check. An ability check that does not have an applicable skill attached can have a different DC given to it than a skill check for which a proficiency [I]could[/I] be applied. A climbing check that would be STR (Athletics)? The DM could make it DC 15. A bend bars check for which it would be STR alone? DC 12. And this ability for DMs to select DCs as appropriate for their tables is the [I]hallmark of the game[/I] (in my opnion.) You know who are the people who don't like this though? Those players out there who keep wishing for a much larger chart of DCs that cover almost every single thing there possibly is to do. As though the thought is that the world has a set definition for what doing every single thing is for every character across every single campaign across every single setting. They want and need a "universal system" of Difficulty Classes. But to me... that just removes any need for a Dungeon Master! At that point yeah, you could just use a computer. "Climb a 17 foot wall with 1/2 inch handholds one hour before sunrise after a light rain in October on the south side of the cliff face..." tick tick tick... modifier modifier modifier... checking... checking... checking... DING! DC 18.75." That game is in my opinion a waste of time. Instead... an actual thinking DM can just look at the baseline chart of DCs... decide what the action ultimate is in the gradient of easy-moderate-hard-very hard... know whether they are asking for an ability check by itself or an ability check with possible skill application... and then just select a DC out of thin air that they think might best fit. And it doesn't have to be any sort of "exact", because the check is going to come and go immediately after its rolled and will forgotten about 10 seconds from now once the story progresses past that point anyway. So what the DC was will not be remembered and not be concerned about after that... so why go nutso trying to create the perfect one? [/QUOTE]

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