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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9039555" data-attributes="member: 93670">Have you not read the dmg, specifically page 238 where they still have a DC ladder? 5e removed <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8241363" target="_blank">the subsystem</a> that allows the gm and players to agree on how DCs should be set and adjusted.&nbsp; That didn't get rid of the example DC list, it just made it so no table uses a similar method to adjust it &amp; that the table itself is incapable of even carrying PC abilities. As noted, the DC table you disparage exists in 5ebut it only serves one purpose now.&nbsp; That purpose is to give RAW justification for why a player will feel justified at being outraged enough to bully the GM into stepping back should the GM actually &quot;put any effort into determining DCs&quot; as you note.&nbsp; Worse still the frayed remnants fail on both sides of the GM screen with literally any single instance of advantage or disadvantage nullifying any hypothetically infinite number of reasons why the other should be present.... That nullification only works if <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue" target="_blank">mary sue </a>&amp; <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonmastersGirlfriend" target="_blank">GM's girlfriend</a> style results are the primary design goal.For good measure they even put that DC scale on PHB 174 to ensure that the players know without question that the GM is making up new DCs if the GM dares to &quot;put any effort into determining DCs&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9039555, member: 93670"] Have you not read the dmg, specifically page 238 where they still have a DC ladder? 5e removed [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8241363']the subsystem[/URL] that allows the gm and players to agree on how DCs should be set and adjusted. That didn't get rid of the example DC list, it just made it so no table uses a similar method to adjust it & that the table itself is incapable of even carrying PC abilities. As noted, the DC table you disparage exists in 5ebut it only serves one purpose now. That purpose is to give RAW justification for why a player will feel justified at being outraged enough to bully the GM into stepping back should the GM actually "put any effort into determining DCs" as you note. Worse still the frayed remnants fail on both sides of the GM screen with literally any single instance of advantage or disadvantage nullifying any hypothetically infinite number of reasons why the other should be present.... That nullification only works if [URL='https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue']mary sue [/URL]& [URL='https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonmastersGirlfriend']GM's girlfriend[/URL] style results are the [I]primary[/I] design goal. For good measure they even put that DC scale on [B]PHB[/B] 174 to ensure that the players know without question that the GM is making up new DCs if the GM dares to "put any effort into determining DCs". [/QUOTE]

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