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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 318019" data-attributes="member: 1363">Tactical ExamplesOk, it's clear from your "pointing" you're looking for more explicit tactical maneuvers to illustrate the strategy.  Here are a few thoughts:I agree the true threat is the Vallorean Champions.  Therefore, I would take the battle to them, early and often.  Keep them reeling, and force them to use/replenish their resources.  I'm still not sure how much "rope" I've got to come up with random stuff, from what books, using what prestige classes, and using what magic items (and what level of magic items).  So, I'm just going to start throwing some stuff out there.Attack ethereally.  Use this and scrying to get close to "stage" the battle.  If their defenses are really strong, they'll have a chance to avoid the "surprise" effect, but not prevent the assault.  Depending on how many of the champions we can catch at one time, we either bring a fairly large force (say 50+) or, I would much prefer to take groups of 5 - 10 into attacks on individual champions (who are separated) with a simultaneous strike.  I would go in with Rogues supported by powerful warriors, with support from sorc/wiz. For example (2 x 20th level rogue, supported by 6 x20th level giant and ogre fighters, and 2 x Wiz/Sor).  For the rogues, take Shadowdancer to use Hide in Plain Sight ability, enhance this with items (cloak/boots) and spells (wieldskill) to get this bonus ridiculously high (hopefully out of range for all the champions except the rogues).  Rogues should also be prepared to use high-level magic items and spells off scrolls.  Also use spells and abilities like "brilliant energy" or "touch attacks" against the warriors.  These will make quick work of warrior-types without the high AC or spell support.  Against arcane spellcasters, surround and conquer.  Any well   With surprise, they will make short work of the opponent.  For equipped band of 20th level warriors, supported by some mordenkainen's or Greater Dispellings should be able to hack their way through any defenses put up.  For your fighter ogre/giants maximize their damage potential, and the capacity to overcome defenses easily (without magic) using things like blind fighting, power attack, wf/ws, +5 weapons, unholy, chaotic, etc.  When fighting champion clerics, it's all about spell casters.  Drop bombs on them from as far away as possible, they shouldn't have any reflexes to speak of, and typically can't hang with their hit points.  The key being to wipe them out overwhelming and blowing through their hit points quickly.  Greater Dispellings will also go a long way against divine casters.  Also note that the dispellings in ANY assault will also force the champions to spend more of their precious resources "reloading" particularly the "all-day" buffs they have available to them.  Against other rogues, hit 'em hard with no save and/or fort save spells.  All it takes are one or two of these to connect and finish the job.  If you get the element of surprise, have your supporting sorcerers t-port them into the room surrounding the champions.  This positioning is critical, particularly against the spellcasters.  You've got to try and stop them from getting spells off if possible by forcing high damage concentration checks.  Critical to the success of this hit-and-run tactic, are contingency effects that get you THE HELL out of there the second things start to look bad.  If you lose these strike forces, you are in BIG trouble.  The point is to get in, do the damage, and get the hell out!  Literally one, or two rounds at the MOST.How would I stop the opponent from doing this to me?  Prismatic anything, as big as you can make it!  As many minions and summoned monsters as possible (particularly tanarri) who can stand guard in the ethereal plane, and warn of this.  Heavy use of divination spells such as Foresight, to get as much warning possible.  More importantly, this is YOUR home turf!   IF someone is dumb enough to come find you, I'd let them in...and BLOW THEM AWAY.  SURROUND YOURSELF with UNDEAD (x200) and CONSTRUCTS(x50) and Illithids(x20) with heavily laden traps and triggers and hung spells, using spells that "hang" spells in a set location, and Contingency/Chain Contingency and Simbul's Spell Sequencers, and Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle and Symbols and Greater Glyphs of Warding to trigger magic effects with saves (Slay Living), without saves (Harm and Reverse Gravity and Power Words), all this plus tons of "triggered" and permanent  Prismatic Walls, Prismatic Spheres, Illusionary Wall, Otiluke's Dispelling Shields, plus Anti-magic shells, dead magic zones, and Walls of Force.  Bring it on!!!  Another note, about a gaping hole in the high level core rules.  Many of the good defensive location spells are ok, but there is significant room for improvement on spells like:  Guards and Wards, Forbiddance, and anything that would prevent ethereal travel into a keep.  I've got a couple of such spells if interested...Taking out the Vallorean MRE packets...Epic Dispelling/Negation/Disjunction spells.  Doesn't have to be a super-high level effect.  Simply negates spells and abilities in a huge area of say 1st or 2nd level.  I assume we're talking "create food and water" here.  Hell, I think I could justify a 5th/6th level spell that permenantly negated the magic of a "1st level" device (potion, +1 sword, MRE pack) with a successful Dispelling check.  Now you're talking 6 - 8 shots of this spell coming from mid-level sorcerers. Strike forces of undead who use Rods of Negation or Negation spells to assault in "waves" and take out communication or MRE packs.  Again, travel ethereal or t'port there.  Get one shot off, then go gaseous and get out.  As they begin to react, the next two waves strike, from different, and opposing directions.  Keep them moving, and keep them guessing.  Enough strikes against the MRE's, particularly with minimal losses to your forces, and you've just given yourself significant advantage over your opponent!Muddy valley???  You're thinking too modern day combat.  We are dug into the trenches beneath the forest floor, using magic to pass attacks and move through the ground (burrow, gaseous, ethereal, incorpreal).  If you want to fight us, come invade the "tombs of horrors" we've established beneath the forest.  It is full of natural traps, deadfalls, and loaded with defensive spells!  Humans are the opposing force?  How about some BIG BARS on the other side of BIG DOORS that allows are big OGRES and GIANTS to trap small bands of humans, then pound them with cannon and arrow fire, or cave it in, or fill it with poison gas, or drown them.  True sight doesn't see through walls or the ground!  Another note on true-sight, straight out of the PH, this works up to 120 feet.  That means invisibility works JUST FINE until you get REALLY, REALLY close in combat terms.  Not melee, but certainly within range of full attack actions with missile weapons and cannon fire.  So, I picture misdirection as using illusions and darkness and mist to reduce visibility, taking it down to true sight or nothing...get underneath them, then burrow, move earth, reverse gravity, blink, pop in-and-out.Here's another example:  you get a few hundred  hobgoblin/human grunts close with invisibility or illusion (such as hallucinatory terrain) and stock them up with potions of true strike, "Greater Magic Weapon" Crossbow Bolts, and Heavy Crossbow.  Get your infiltrators (undead, werewolves, wang-liang) in close using t-port, disguise, or ethereal travel, then use them to drop Obscuring Mist and Faerie Fire simultaneously "highlighting" who to target for your hobgoblins.  The infiltrators then turn their attention on the "standard bearers" or MRE packs.  The hobgoblins start raining auto hits for 1d10+5 points of damage a piece down on the unsuspecting forces (from 180' away)x200 or more.  Take another potion the next round and do it again.  The hobgoblins begin a retreat, while others begin to summoned monsters and ice storms (no save, and most undead and half-fiends will resist).  Finally, on your way out, use enchantment/charm spells to get rid of those damn standards!  Spells like Otto's, Dominate, Greater Command "Drop", and Greater Command "Throw" can give you a chance to drop it in a portable hole and get out.  In the span of about three to five rounds, with minimal (or hopefully no) losses to your forces, you could deal a heavy blow to an advance group of the Vallorean army.  All of a sudden,  I really like our chances in the followup battle, particularly if it's on OUR terms, in a location of our choosing and preparation.  Let me know if this is the kind of thing you're looking for!</blockquote>

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