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Message: <blockquote data-quote="trix" data-source="post: 254982" data-attributes="member: 5337">Re: Re: ...Well... i used the other 'goblin' tribes to signify the worst case scenario.  A standard human army would have a problem with height and darkness, so at best, they'll be equal to an invading goblin tribe.  At worst, they'll be too high in the tunnels and suffer too badly to seriosly take the tunnels.The best the humans could do is to block off and vent all the tunnel entrances.  Entering is a deathtrap.So the goblin 'play' is to collapse the tunnels and dig the pre-collapsed vent intakes (which arnt obviously guarded, since from the surface you have no clue as to where they are.)  This fixes the air problem.They would then organise and dig the alternative exits that were precollapsed, bringing the raiding party to the surface.  Their scouts can do 2 things: Determine that they can drive off the siege party, or determine that they must evacuate.More than likely, the assault force would fight with the weakest guarded cave entrance that wasnt collapsed.  If a resounding victory is achieved, they enter into the tunnels immediately after battle, there is no waiting around on the surface, straight into cover.  The battle-tired would take over as defenders, and the defenders would be the next assault force, which would go after the next siege group, etc.Its reasonable to expect that a large well tunnelled mountain could be held indefinately considering that:a) Matching 1000 goblins against 1000 humans results in the following:1000 humans split over 6 entrances (180 each) if they intend to smoke the complex.  So, 600 goblins leave through a precollapsed entrance, to squash 160 humans at some cave entrace.  Immediately, they enter their complex again having gained 1 guarded entrance to the world.  This continues until the human party must withdraw or loose their only defending force.IE: Its silly to loose your entire attacking force, because its also the city defense.  So, if they have 1000 soldiers, and loose 600 of them.  Then they have to ensure that when defending their city, they have, say... 2:1 odds, so the remaining 400 soldiers can fend off 800 goblins.  Obviously, the goblins would withdraw according to the same equation related to odds.  With say a 4:1 odds defending humans from their tunnels, they could loose 800 goblins to have 200 goblins defend 800 humans.  A bit of operations research later, and well, the equations of war come into play.Anyway, the key to driving out the goblins from the complex is that you'd need a little less than (ENTRANCES*GOBLIN SOLDIERS*some factor based on distance layout between entrances, reaction time of invading force and knowledge of human movements by goblins)=REQUIRED # OF HUMAN SOLDIERS... to successfully siege a goblin complex... it could be calculated based on effieciencies.  As you can see (based on my speculation, i've given no proof), its a bugger to siege a well planned goblin complex.Things change when magic is involved.Consider ethereal form.  Walk into their foodstores, and set the stuff alight.  Throw some smokers around, light some fires, etc, and thats it: Game Over.Consider clarvoyance.  With a wizard with good perception, he should be able to map out a few entrances.Good communication + teleport can increase reaction time, requiring fewer troops.  Clarvoyance could be used at each tunnel entrance to check the build up/movement of troops near the entrance.  (Meaning that there is going to be a raid [call other troops], or a raid is going to occur somewhere else [send troops somewhere else or prepare for an invasion from this quater]).It would be tough on the goblin shamen side.  One would need to block magical scrying within the complex and scry the outside.Communication within the complex should be easy, using nonmagical effects.  Teleportation and ethereal passage would need to be shut down.  Aggressive magical spells arnt going to have major effects (fireball can only kill a few goblins... but there is no line of sight/tunnels are all curved never straight(or at least rises and lowers in a straight line, etc)).Blocking the abstract spells (teleport/scry/ethereal form/etc) are the ones that are most concerning since they play with the dynamics of conventional warfare.A worst case conventional invasion by goblins would have goblins (same size, knowledgable of tactics, possibly able to get spys and sabotures in before the invasion) would have a 2:1 defensive odds.A worst case conventional invasion by humans would have at least a 3:1 defensive odds.Throw in magic, and a couple of well placed fires would make things even.  If the goblin shamen are able to block the abstract stuff, well, then the caves can only be taken by force.-Tim</blockquote>

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