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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4234663" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't see the need for them, but...3.X 'Brutes' make good minions.  By Brutes I mean having a high strength relative to thier CR.  Things like Orcs, Ogres, and Hill Giants can still threaten higher level parties (in increasing numbers) even as they become increasingly squishy.  A frost giants +18 to hit and considerable damage still means a threat to a party long after its CR 9 has been passed, and long after less brutish monsters of the same CR can no longer muster a credible attack.  Armor such 'brutes' with superior armor and give them masterwork weapons, and at higher levels 1-4 levels of fighter and you have 3.X minions without breaking any rules.  If you want a true 4e style minion, simply take a creature ~6 below party CR and give it an extraordinary ability that arbitrarily bestows +5 to attack, +5 to AC, and +3 to saves.  Viola, instant minion.  For a truly squishy 4e style experience, divide hit points by 10, give them all evasion, and multiply the number of creatures you'd use by 4.   For example,Orc 1st level Warrior MinionSize/Type: Medium Humanoid (Orc) Hit Dice: 1 (1 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 18 (+3 studded leather armor, +5 insight), touch 15, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4Attack: Falchion +9 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6+3) Full Attack: Falchion +9 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Evasion, light sensitivity Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6 Skills: Listen +1, Spot +1 Feats: Alertness Ogre MinionSize/Type: Large Giant Hit Dice: 4 (3 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 ft. in hide armor (6 squares); Armor Class: 21 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +5 natural, +3 hide armor, +5 insight), touch 13, flat-footed 21 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12 Attack: Greatclub +13 melee (2d8+7) or javelin +6 ranged (1d8+5)Full Attack: Greatclub +13 melee (2d8+7) or javelin +6 ranged (1d8+5) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: —  Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., evasion, low-light vision Saves: Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +4 Abilities: Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7 Skills: Climb +5, Listen +2, Spot +2 Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatclub) Hill Giant MinionSize/Type: Large Giant Hit Dice: 12 (10 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 ft. in hide armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft. Armor Class: 25 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +9 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 8, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+20 Attack: Greatclub +21 melee (2d8+10) or rock +13 ranged (2d6+7) Full Attack: Greatclub +21/+16 melee (2d8+10) or rock +13 ranged (2d6+7) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Rock throwing Special Qualities: Evasion, low-light vision, rock catching Saves: Fort +15, Ref +6, Will +7 Abilities: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7 Skills: Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6 Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub) You can throw a ton of those at a party without worrying about tracking hit points when a party of appropriate level makes an attack.  And they still have good enough attacks to hit and worry a party 6-8 levels about the CR of the base creation.You don't have to use any hard and fast rules either.  I find the rules to be liberating; don't let them be a straight jacket.</blockquote>

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