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How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.
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<blockquote data-quote="Hautamaki" data-source="post: 5485457" data-attributes="member: 42219"><p>I think that as long as we're discussing nerfing high-level magic users, we need to also discuss buffing low-level ones--especially wizard/sorcerer d4 hd types that are completely useless without their spells (druids, bards, and clerics are at least decent at physical combat).</p><p></p><p>I think a lot of the 'balance' of the magic using classes, especially sorcerer and wizards, is that they are supposed to be weak until around level 5-8ish, and then be about equal around levels 6-14ish maybe, and then be the strongest after that. So that over an entire 20-level arc, they ARE balanced. The problem is that within that arc, they are only actual equal in strength around the middle levels; at low levels they are too weak and at high levels they are too strong. I believe this was an implicit design goal, and in fact the designers accomplished that goal nicely. I just don't think that in reality most players very often run an entire 20-level campaign; most players tend to start at a middle level (since the low levels are quite imbalanced against magic users and very swingy in general) and the campaign runs for a while but rarely gets all the way to 20th level or beyond as people usually have real-life issues or just lose interest long before then.</p><p></p><p>What I would do to balance casters overall then:</p><p></p><p>First off, low level clerics, druids, and bards are fine imo. They have weak magic but are decent enough fighters to make up for it. Wizards and sorcs are crap though so I'd make sure that wizards and sorcs have at least 10 spells per day; cantrips and 1st level, at first level.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, magic users tend to gain in power too rapidly over time, so they eventually greatly surpass non-magic using classes. Therefore all magic using classes would gain fewer spells per day on a level up. Probably only 1. So that 20th level magic users still only have around 30 spells per day in total. However, I'd allow them to assign a greater proportion of their spells per day to higher level spells if they wish. So that a 20th level caster might have something like 3 spells per day from each level, plus 3 more of any level. Something like that anyways.</p><p></p><p>Thirdly, I'd get rid of or greatly change some of the spells that really break the game. Spells like polymorph that can either change yourself into a dragon and own the hell out of an equal level fighter, or turn the enemy into a bug... basically instant kill spells like that would have to go, or be made almost impossible to use (which is the same as just getting rid of them really). Also, spells that break the DM's ability to design dungeons or adventures should be greatly changed or just eliminated. Scrying-type spells (DM designs a bunch of clever clues for the PCs to uncover the plot, wizard just casts scrying, now what? Either it doesn't work, and wizard player goes 'wtf, why did I take that spell if it's never going to work >.<' or it works and the players just win, yay) teleport spells (DM designs awesome dungeon crawl, wizard just teleports to the end, yay) knock/passwall (DM designs awesome trapped door for party rogue to figure out, wizard casts spell, door is bypassed automatically, yay) </p><p></p><p>Of course, plenty of people are going to say that it's up to the DM to design dungeons taking this magic into account... but these are spells that either work or don't, and there's no good answer there. If they don't work, the magic user player is just going to be pissed that he wasted his limited spell option on a spell that does nothing for him just because the DM says so pretty much, but if they do work, all the other players are wondering what they are even doing there since the magic user can take care of everything with magic anyways.</p><p></p><p>So yeah, gotta go, but that's about it in a nutshell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hautamaki, post: 5485457, member: 42219"] I think that as long as we're discussing nerfing high-level magic users, we need to also discuss buffing low-level ones--especially wizard/sorcerer d4 hd types that are completely useless without their spells (druids, bards, and clerics are at least decent at physical combat). I think a lot of the 'balance' of the magic using classes, especially sorcerer and wizards, is that they are supposed to be weak until around level 5-8ish, and then be about equal around levels 6-14ish maybe, and then be the strongest after that. So that over an entire 20-level arc, they ARE balanced. The problem is that within that arc, they are only actual equal in strength around the middle levels; at low levels they are too weak and at high levels they are too strong. I believe this was an implicit design goal, and in fact the designers accomplished that goal nicely. I just don't think that in reality most players very often run an entire 20-level campaign; most players tend to start at a middle level (since the low levels are quite imbalanced against magic users and very swingy in general) and the campaign runs for a while but rarely gets all the way to 20th level or beyond as people usually have real-life issues or just lose interest long before then. What I would do to balance casters overall then: First off, low level clerics, druids, and bards are fine imo. They have weak magic but are decent enough fighters to make up for it. Wizards and sorcs are crap though so I'd make sure that wizards and sorcs have at least 10 spells per day; cantrips and 1st level, at first level. Secondly, magic users tend to gain in power too rapidly over time, so they eventually greatly surpass non-magic using classes. Therefore all magic using classes would gain fewer spells per day on a level up. Probably only 1. So that 20th level magic users still only have around 30 spells per day in total. However, I'd allow them to assign a greater proportion of their spells per day to higher level spells if they wish. So that a 20th level caster might have something like 3 spells per day from each level, plus 3 more of any level. Something like that anyways. Thirdly, I'd get rid of or greatly change some of the spells that really break the game. Spells like polymorph that can either change yourself into a dragon and own the hell out of an equal level fighter, or turn the enemy into a bug... basically instant kill spells like that would have to go, or be made almost impossible to use (which is the same as just getting rid of them really). Also, spells that break the DM's ability to design dungeons or adventures should be greatly changed or just eliminated. Scrying-type spells (DM designs a bunch of clever clues for the PCs to uncover the plot, wizard just casts scrying, now what? Either it doesn't work, and wizard player goes 'wtf, why did I take that spell if it's never going to work >.<' or it works and the players just win, yay) teleport spells (DM designs awesome dungeon crawl, wizard just teleports to the end, yay) knock/passwall (DM designs awesome trapped door for party rogue to figure out, wizard casts spell, door is bypassed automatically, yay) Of course, plenty of people are going to say that it's up to the DM to design dungeons taking this magic into account... but these are spells that either work or don't, and there's no good answer there. If they don't work, the magic user player is just going to be pissed that he wasted his limited spell option on a spell that does nothing for him just because the DM says so pretty much, but if they do work, all the other players are wondering what they are even doing there since the magic user can take care of everything with magic anyways. So yeah, gotta go, but that's about it in a nutshell. [/QUOTE]
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