Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mort" data-source="post: 5488842" data-attributes="member: 762"><p>The rogue cannot come even close to the wizard. He can sub in a pinch, at great expense (non crafted wants and scrolls are expensive!) and only at the whim of the DM (who must actively give access to the proper magical items).</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile the mage can step on the rogue's niche as an afterthought (knock, invisibility, silence, scrying etc.) and (with crafted scrolls) still have plenty of room to do his own thing.</p><p></p><p>The playing field is not remotely equal.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again only at the whim of the DM. Backsab is extremely situational and often does not apply (undead, constructs, slimes etc.).</p><p></p><p>The wizard, on the other hand, by mid-high level can summon monsters that give a fighter a run for his money and again still have plenty of oomph left over for other things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've noticed this only applies if there are 2 (or more) clerics in the party. Otherwise the cleric is so busy healing (and swapping spells for healing) that "kicking butt" is tertiary. On paper the cleric seems more powerful, but in play this always seems balanced by his almost indispensable medic role. But even here caster vs. non-caster, that is the real distinction.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The big problem arises when the niche encroachment is extraordinarily one sided. The mage can fill in for the rogue with some inconvenience; the rogue cannot fill in for the mage, not really.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is why I love 4e rituals, they solve this problem. Sure the wizard can open the lock just like the rogue. BUT the rogue can do it in seconds while the mage takes 10 minutes, it's pricey, loud, and it fatigues the mage (costs a healing surge).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A scroll of knock is not that expensive, there are rarely that many must open locked doors where a scroll or 2 will not sufice. And if there are - use a wand; I don't believe I've seen 50 must open doors in 20 levels of adventuring!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have seen several parties function without a rogue. I have yet to see even 1 party function without a wizard (though I'm told they exist).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't remember near the niche encroachment in 1e/2 but have seen it since 3e and I firmly believe (as I've stated elsewhere) that extremely easy access to scrolls (it's a free feat) and wands (also essentially a free feat) is the big culprit.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mort, post: 5488842, member: 762"] The rogue cannot come even close to the wizard. He can sub in a pinch, at great expense (non crafted wants and scrolls are expensive!) and only at the whim of the DM (who must actively give access to the proper magical items). Meanwhile the mage can step on the rogue's niche as an afterthought (knock, invisibility, silence, scrying etc.) and (with crafted scrolls) still have plenty of room to do his own thing. The playing field is not remotely equal. Again only at the whim of the DM. Backsab is extremely situational and often does not apply (undead, constructs, slimes etc.). The wizard, on the other hand, by mid-high level can summon monsters that give a fighter a run for his money and again still have plenty of oomph left over for other things. I've noticed this only applies if there are 2 (or more) clerics in the party. Otherwise the cleric is so busy healing (and swapping spells for healing) that "kicking butt" is tertiary. On paper the cleric seems more powerful, but in play this always seems balanced by his almost indispensable medic role. But even here caster vs. non-caster, that is the real distinction. The big problem arises when the niche encroachment is extraordinarily one sided. The mage can fill in for the rogue with some inconvenience; the rogue cannot fill in for the mage, not really. This is why I love 4e rituals, they solve this problem. Sure the wizard can open the lock just like the rogue. BUT the rogue can do it in seconds while the mage takes 10 minutes, it's pricey, loud, and it fatigues the mage (costs a healing surge). A scroll of knock is not that expensive, there are rarely that many must open locked doors where a scroll or 2 will not sufice. And if there are - use a wand; I don't believe I've seen 50 must open doors in 20 levels of adventuring! I have seen several parties function without a rogue. I have yet to see even 1 party function without a wizard (though I'm told they exist). I don't remember near the niche encroachment in 1e/2 but have seen it since 3e and I firmly believe (as I've stated elsewhere) that extremely easy access to scrolls (it's a free feat) and wands (also essentially a free feat) is the big culprit. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.
Top