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How would you houserule (nerf) magic at high levels.
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5489776" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>The first problem is partially where you get into the intricacies of "actual play" vs. "theoretical play." </p><p></p><p><strong>Theoretically</strong> the Rogue can climb walls all day, and the wizard can do so once per day for about an hour.</p><p></p><p><strong>Actually</strong>, sessions that involve 10+ climb checks within one hour of game time are tedious on the face of it, and will likely involve at least a few failures, while spellcasters can always supplement their 1/day with various feats and magic items (a wand gives you 50 in 3e. 50!), and they don't risk failure of their abilities.</p><p></p><p>The wizard should be able to do something wizardly vs. any challenge in the game they encounter, no matter how long the adventuring day is. Not that they always have their nova powers, but they should probably always have at least some low-key effects they can rely on. </p><p></p><p>The wizard should face failure when they're doing something wizardy that doesn't respond well to wizardyness, such as climbing a wall. </p><p></p><p>The rogue (or whoever the designated explorer is), by counterpoint, should NOT face failure, and shouldn't have to roll 10d20 to get one of their defining features to work. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is why your warriors need access to pseudo-magical abilities, too. Okay, the rogue can get up that cliff because she IS the rogue, after all, and her skill and practice would let her climb up crumbling ice walls coated in grease. Her climbing grace is nearly supernatural. Perhaps she is the secret daughter of the spider-god. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a good first step. You now have spells that scale like skills, with a definite chance of failure. Spider climb doesn't just let you climb walls, it only lets you climb walls with a good enough skill check.</p><p></p><p>Only, if they all key off of one skill that the mage has training in, you suddenly reach a point where the mage effectively has training in <strong>everything the party does</strong>. Everyone make climb checks, except the Wizard (Spiderclimb). Everyone make Diplomacy checks, except the Wizard (Charm Person). Everyone make Perception checks, except the Wizard (True Sight). Everyone make attack rolls, except the Wizard (Magic Missile). Everyone make a Heal check, except the Wizard (regeneration). The wizard gets to use one skill for this that he's always at a bonus with.</p><p></p><p>You could solve this problem by breaking the spells up into different skills, but then you just overlap the skills system that already exists, and raise the question of, well, my Rogue is very charismatic, why can't he try to Charm Person?</p><p></p><p>You're on the right track, though. Making magic not an auto-success is an important first step toward a more balanced narrative control, especially at high levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's part of the problem, though. A wizard should not have to depend on a DM's whims and style any more than a rogue does. There's no reason your Age of Worms wizard shouldn't be gaining new spells without requiring the DM to drop them as treasure (or, alternately, no reason the game shouldn't make it automatic that the DM drops them as treasure). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that magic should be powerful and it should allow the caster to bend the laws of nature.</p><p></p><p>However, I believe that <em>player characters</em> should be powerful, and they should be able to bend the laws of nature. </p><p></p><p>Or that they should not be powerful, and thus they should not be able to bend the laws of nature (more 4e's response). </p><p></p><p>Let fighters break reality, too.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5489776, member: 2067"] The first problem is partially where you get into the intricacies of "actual play" vs. "theoretical play." [B]Theoretically[/B] the Rogue can climb walls all day, and the wizard can do so once per day for about an hour. [B]Actually[/B], sessions that involve 10+ climb checks within one hour of game time are tedious on the face of it, and will likely involve at least a few failures, while spellcasters can always supplement their 1/day with various feats and magic items (a wand gives you 50 in 3e. 50!), and they don't risk failure of their abilities. The wizard should be able to do something wizardly vs. any challenge in the game they encounter, no matter how long the adventuring day is. Not that they always have their nova powers, but they should probably always have at least some low-key effects they can rely on. The wizard should face failure when they're doing something wizardy that doesn't respond well to wizardyness, such as climbing a wall. The rogue (or whoever the designated explorer is), by counterpoint, should NOT face failure, and shouldn't have to roll 10d20 to get one of their defining features to work. Which is why your warriors need access to pseudo-magical abilities, too. Okay, the rogue can get up that cliff because she IS the rogue, after all, and her skill and practice would let her climb up crumbling ice walls coated in grease. Her climbing grace is nearly supernatural. Perhaps she is the secret daughter of the spider-god. That's a good first step. You now have spells that scale like skills, with a definite chance of failure. Spider climb doesn't just let you climb walls, it only lets you climb walls with a good enough skill check. Only, if they all key off of one skill that the mage has training in, you suddenly reach a point where the mage effectively has training in [B]everything the party does[/B]. Everyone make climb checks, except the Wizard (Spiderclimb). Everyone make Diplomacy checks, except the Wizard (Charm Person). Everyone make Perception checks, except the Wizard (True Sight). Everyone make attack rolls, except the Wizard (Magic Missile). Everyone make a Heal check, except the Wizard (regeneration). The wizard gets to use one skill for this that he's always at a bonus with. You could solve this problem by breaking the spells up into different skills, but then you just overlap the skills system that already exists, and raise the question of, well, my Rogue is very charismatic, why can't he try to Charm Person? You're on the right track, though. Making magic not an auto-success is an important first step toward a more balanced narrative control, especially at high levels. That's part of the problem, though. A wizard should not have to depend on a DM's whims and style any more than a rogue does. There's no reason your Age of Worms wizard shouldn't be gaining new spells without requiring the DM to drop them as treasure (or, alternately, no reason the game shouldn't make it automatic that the DM drops them as treasure). I agree that magic should be powerful and it should allow the caster to bend the laws of nature. However, I believe that [I]player characters[/I] should be powerful, and they should be able to bend the laws of nature. Or that they should not be powerful, and thus they should not be able to bend the laws of nature (more 4e's response). Let fighters break reality, too. [/QUOTE]
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