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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5821527" data-attributes="member: 87792">The 4e fighter is a lot better at stepping on the wizard's toes than the 3e fighter is.&nbsp; As for the rogue's toes, it's much easier to create a 4e fighter with skillmonkey tendencies than it is a 3e fighter/skillmonkey due to the terrible skill points the 3e one gets.&nbsp; 2+int mod skill points/level out of about 36 skills with no easy way to get more doesn't go half as far as 3 skills out of seventeen, all skills levelling automatically, and feats and multiclass feats gaining you an entire extra skill.&nbsp; Fighters are also near-strikers as it is - and with two multiclass feats they can gain sneak attack 1/fight and the ability 1/encounter to hide in places only a specialist rogue can.&nbsp;You are simply wrong in your claim.&nbsp;&nbsp;Except that as I have shown it's easier to step on the toes of the rogue with a 4e fighter than a 3e one.&nbsp; I can easily make a 4e human skillmonkey fighter who at first level wears light armour (hide), carries a rapier and shortsword, and has the skills Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Streetwise, Intimidate, and Athletics trained.&nbsp; Oh, and sneak attack 1/fight.&nbsp; (I can do something similar by 4th level with any race).Translating those skills into 3e you'd need Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, Spot, Listen, Search, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Intimidate, Climb, Jump, and Swim all trained at effectively maximum ranks.&nbsp; Find me the fighter who can do that in 3.X.&nbsp; Hell, it's pushing towards the limits of what a dedicated rogue can do in 3.X&nbsp;Explicit roles lower the theoretical limits of PC options (so do explicit classes).&nbsp; But a class as crippled as the 3.X fighter with its 2+int skill points/level is nowhere near those theoretical limits.&nbsp;&nbsp;This, again, is simply not true.&nbsp; If you want to straight debuff single targets, the feylock springs to mind - and the wizard does a fine job too.&nbsp; Surprisingly so does a well built charisma-paladin.&nbsp; For area debuffs the wizard works extremely well.&nbsp; A bard built for debuffing also works well.&nbsp;And 7th sea is a different game from Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sounds like a 4e cleric.&nbsp; Or a 4e bard built with area attacks.&nbsp;&nbsp;In 4e as I have mentioned the Cleric is a leader with a minor in control.&nbsp; Use the class options to swap healer's lore for battle cleric's lore and we have our cleric in heavy armour.&nbsp; Then we take either the multiclass paladin or multiclass cavalier feat and we get either a mark or a defender aura.&nbsp; Weapon attack powers - the cleric gets them.&nbsp; And now we have our front line leader/controller who is able to defend.&nbsp;So much for your claim of &quot;Not doable&quot;.&nbsp; Once more your claims about 4e are simply not true.&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5821527, member: 87792"] The 4e fighter is a [I]lot[/I] better at stepping on the wizard's toes than the 3e fighter is. As for the rogue's toes, it's [I]much[/I] easier to create a 4e fighter with skillmonkey tendencies than it is a 3e fighter/skillmonkey due to the terrible skill points the 3e one gets. 2+int mod skill points/level out of about 36 skills with no easy way to get more doesn't go half as far as 3 skills out of seventeen, all skills levelling automatically, and feats and multiclass feats gaining you an entire extra skill. Fighters are also near-strikers as it is - and with two multiclass feats they can gain sneak attack 1/fight and the ability 1/encounter to hide in places only a specialist rogue can. You are simply wrong in your claim. Except that as I have shown it's [I]easier[/I] to step on the toes of the rogue with a 4e fighter than a 3e one. I can easily make a 4e human skillmonkey fighter who [I]at first level[/I] wears light armour (hide), carries a rapier and shortsword, and has the skills Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Streetwise, Intimidate, and Athletics trained. Oh, and sneak attack 1/fight. (I can do something similar by 4th level with any race). Translating those skills into 3e you'd need Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, Spot, Listen, Search, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Intimidate, Climb, Jump, and Swim all trained at effectively maximum ranks. Find me the fighter who can do [I]that[/I] in 3.X. Hell, it's pushing towards the limits of what a dedicated rogue can do in 3.X Explicit roles lower the [I]theoretical[/I] limits of PC options (so do explicit classes). But a class as crippled as the 3.X fighter with its 2+int skill points/level is nowhere near those theoretical limits. This, again, is simply not true. If you want to straight debuff single targets, the feylock springs to mind - and the wizard does a fine job too. Surprisingly so does a well built charisma-paladin. For area debuffs the wizard works extremely well. A bard built for debuffing also works well. And 7th sea is a different game from [I]Dungeons and Dragons[/I]. Sounds like a 4e cleric. Or a 4e bard built with area attacks. In 4e as I have mentioned the Cleric is a leader with a minor in control. Use the class options to swap healer's lore for battle cleric's lore and we have our cleric in heavy armour. Then we take either the multiclass paladin or multiclass cavalier feat and we get either a mark or a defender aura. Weapon attack powers - the cleric gets them. And now we have our front line leader/controller who is able to defend. So much for your claim of "Not doable". Once more your claims about 4e are simply [I]not true[/I]. Yes. [/QUOTE]

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