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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9329983" data-attributes="member: 93670">I'm jumping into this late & went looking for comments with vancian in them to kick off with.  Since the thread explicitly wants "nerfs"... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f608.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":devilish:" title="Devil    :devilish:"  data-smilie="29"data-shortname=":devilish:" /><img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤣" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f923.png" title="Rolling on the floor laughing    :rofl:" data-shortname=":rofl:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />nerfs you shall have<img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤣" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f923.png" title="Rolling on the floor laughing    :rofl:" data-shortname=":rofl:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f608.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":devilish:" title="Devil    :devilish:"  data-smilie="29"data-shortname=":devilish:" /> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Return to Vanvcian casting.  <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players who staryted with 4e's ADEU or 5e's neovancian prep seriously underestimate how significantly this single change alters the way casters play out at the table</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Boot them from the unified slot progression 5e introduced. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizard slots are wizard slots, they don't stack or combine with  slots from sorcerer cleric artificer druid &  so on...  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Slots from EK & AT may or may not count as wizard slots depending on how those classes are designed.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Many spells need to go back to having a set DC baked into the spell unless a feat  magic item or sometimes★ caster level modifies it<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Again this makes a huge change because a spell designed to cripple low level threats and hinder low levels when it might be most or all of the caster's slots & hinder trash level mooks at mid levels is going mildly inconvenience high level threats at higher levels.  <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sticking with the "nerf" theme... On top of that this kind of change nerfs wizards by taking away what 5e gives them by default and allows them to potentially earn some of it back through magic items & specialization (feats/subclasses/etc).</li> </ul></li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reading a scroll provokes an opportunity attack, as does removing it from your backpack.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">These two are important because with a return to Vancian casting the wizard is much more dependent on scrolls & wands to fill out their options  even if it's expensive to be prepared for edge cases</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Many of the above nerfs wizards by making them more dependent on things like scrolls & wands.  Take it a step further & take away arcane recovery.  Give them scribe scroll to make them spend gold & time scribing permanent scrolls they need to carry around & potentially risk taking out in a fight instead</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nerf wizard by going back to nonlinear carrying capacity scaling.  When they only have 8 strength they have a lot more trouble carrying treasure like gold wands scrolls or food & water</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nerf wizard by removing unlimited self scaling no cost at will cantrips & replace them with something more akin to <a href="https://dndtools.net/feats/categories/reserve/?page=2" target="_blank">the old reserve feats </a>where the scaling was based on the reserved spell slot &  cost was keeping a spell good slot filled & unused </li> </ul>Given how much of "the wizard's power" tends to rely on describing a scenario where a quantum spell prep list & quantum spellbook are in play.. yes obviously going further away from quantum by getting rid of  neovancian's quantum slots.  If you started with 4e or 5e I'm not sure how to convey just how muchgameplay is impacted by that shift 5e made when it decided to go from Vancian casting to neovancian prep but I'll try.  That shift alone makes such an enormous difference that it was not uncommon or particularly unreasonable if a GM told players with a spellcaster (any spellcaster) that they were required to provide the GM with a list of what spells they had prepared & how many of each so they could tick them off as used during play★I honestly can't remember if there were any spells that did something unusual like a DC determined by caster level</blockquote>

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