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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8949714" data-attributes="member: 82106">Just based on my own extensive GMing experience with 4e, and a lesser amount of time spent as a player, I know a couple of things:1. 4e is very much a 'story game', but it isn't ENTIRELY 'there'. I do think there's a more focused design lurking in there.2. I don't run 4e like almost anyone else does. For example your bullet points above don't particularly speak to me (not to say you may not have some specific ideas that are interesting).I've actually written, and played, my own "Beyond 4e" kind of game, <a href="https://www.giantelectronicbrain.com/homl.html" target="_blank">Heroes of Myth and Legend</a>. This game basically starts where 4e left off in terms of taking this sort of design to its logical conclusion. Some highlights:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Leveling from 1 to 20: This is simply a way of reducing the need for 'noise' like levels and levels of powers that sometimes seem to exist for the purpose of filling 30 levels. HoML's 'Mythic' tier is only the top 3 levels. This gives you a more succinct finish.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Modes of play: You are either in an interlude (no dice, just dialog), a challenge (essentially a 4e SC, though the rules are a bit polished), or combat (quite 4e-like round by round, grid, actions, etc.). Checks DO NOT EXIST outside of challenge/combat, no free-standing checks!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Checks have variable outcomes and the outcome is related to intent. If you are trying to beat another guy to the top of a cliff and you fail, you may well get to the top, just not fast enough, or you might suffer an injury. You can fail, you can succeed, and you can achieve critical success, but only if you spend PPs.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There isn't explicitly an AEDU in HoML at this point. Powers generally can be used as desired, but have effects scaled by power point expenditure. This also means there isn't quite the hard required focus on combat vs utility, but players will need to sort out what they need.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">'Build' isn't some sort of isolated game that is independent of play. There are no XP in HoML. You play, you designate quests for your character/party, and you receive boons for quest completion. The acquisition of a major boon, which usually includes a power and/or similar stuff (maybe like a 4e feat) produces a level increase. So, you want to be a certain type of PC? You will need to figure that out, IN GAME.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can opt to take an injury or other Affliction (basically like a 4e disease, but the rules are improved a bit) in place of some other failure consequence (often damage in combat). This introduces a bit different set of trade-offs. Healing Surges are now Power Points, which still drive hit point recovery as in 4e, but with the added feature that they can be expended for increased effects with powers (which are called feats in HoML, but they're 4e powers, basically).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rituals and similar stuff serve a slightly different purpose: they allow you to reframe a situation in terms of using a different check. Fly up the cliff with arcana instead of climbing it with athletics, different means, same intent. They may also serve to alter fictional position constraints (let your PC do something otherwise deemed impossible, though I am not too fond of that word).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e-style inspiration: Pretty much exactly what it says on the tin, and this covers all dynamic situational adjustments.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Simplified modifiers: There is a level mod, a proficiency mod, a 'permanent' mod, and ability mod, that's it, they never stack, there's no such thing as 'untyped' modifiers, and these categories apply to everything everywhere, not just checks. Stacking simply isn't a thing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">All proficiency mods are +5: This along with the simplified non-stacking mods mean ALL checks of all types are entirely equivalent! You could use a skill as a defense in HoML, unlike in 4e (where it almost but not quite works).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players roll all dice: There are no AC/NADS, you simply defend yourself. You can use feats (powers) to do so, skills, abilities, heck you could defend yourself with a background if you can figure out why that would work.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Armor is just a DR.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Items are all just 'instantiations' of ritual magic. Any ritual could exist as an item (some might not make sense) and you could hypothetically learn the formula to any item and, say, put a vorpal sword enchantment on your sword for one combat.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scaling: It is possible for combats at higher tiers (Legendary, Mythic) to happen in 'scaled space' such that squares become large areas. So you can have gonzo Legendary fights that cover large areas, etc. Scale could be adjusted as-desired, although I haven't really tried to work out rules for this. Honestly, it has little mechanical impact on play, its more of a dramatic device that can be employed. You would be unlikely to want to scale up where a fight happens inside a building, but suppose the bad guy runs outside, that might change things. Certainly there are likely to be some higher level situations where these scalings can make things more interesting.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wealth is basically just an attribute. You can 'buy things', but in general this isn't a game about counting loot, so effectively 'gold' and such are just flavor, all that matters is if you have a +3 wealth ability mod, when it matters you can lean on that in a challenge. Since it isn't one of the big 6 it is more of a 'substitute', letting you do a sort of ritual-like thing where you say "well, I get out my purse..." and suddenly that mod comes into play.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can declare some free descriptors on your character and expend your fate to explain how they give you auto-success, or auto-fail to get your fate back. This is a bit better than 5e's BIFTs approach. There's always the question of altering these as well, and the GM can always use them to explain difficult checks, for example.</li> </ul>Anyway, as you can see, there is a lot of stuff that is different from 4e. It is not really 'the same game', but it works well for the very gonzo sort of low prep/low myth, character-story-centered, kind of play that I do.</blockquote>

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