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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8949935" data-attributes="member: 82106">PPs are not really equateable to ANYTHING from previous editions. They are essentially classes in and of themselves, though obviously a limited and special form of such. Their purpose is mostly THEMATIC and related to the whole tier concept very closesly 3e Prestige Classes are just a way to package up some mechanics. They do have a thematic component, but its not tied to overall play of the game, it is merely a character development tool, not much different in concept from a feat. But a Paragon Path, I mean, just read the names of them! You get these things at level 11 and the game enters a 'new phase' the Paragon Tier, in which your foes are no longer simply deadly monsters which roam the earth and local bad guys. Now you face mighty foes of legend, centuries old dragons, strange beasts from deep beneath the earth where the fearsome Torog and the Drow are rumored to exist, etc. Here's an example:Anointed Champion"Ancient blessings have I spoken over my armaments. I do not fear any power that stands against me."In times long past, when the gods warred with the primordials, the divine armies were arrayed in majestic regalia blessed by angelic armorers with powerful wards against their foes. By long study of holy texts, you have learned those ancient prayers and rites.As an anointed champion, you ward yourself against your foes by sanctifying the arms and armor you bear into battle with sacred oil and special ceremonies. You speak prayers that have not been heard by mortals for centuries, conferring the ancient blessings upon your companions as well. As you perform your holy tasks, you can feel the pull of history urging you on to the same glory the armies of the gods knew as they bested their enemies in ages past.--Divine Power, p44.This is no mere 'kit' you add to your character, it is a mighty office of sacred power which you must uphold! This is epic fantasy written right across your character sheet. No other edition has anything that holds a candle to this. I mean, there's some good stuff in every Edition, but 4e does this kind of thing brilliantly, again and again, this is just some random PP I picked up in 20 seconds of browsing the database. Its not some especially thrilling pick, 90% of them rise to this level or better.The Epic Destinies DOUBLE DOWN on that! I mean, "You are now a Demigod" what other game puts that on the table, for real? You'd have to play Exalted or something like that to get a similar sort of thing. Even high level AD&D play didn't really easily give you that kind of feel.So, there are some challenges with the Theme -> PP -> ED model. First of all the themes are tacked on, so its fair to say they add an additional level of mechanical stuff that isn't always welcome, although it can be fun and interesting. Themes probably should have been in the game on day one, and I agree with the idea from earlier in the thread, was it [USER=22779]@Hussar[/USER] maybe that suggested it? That is to have 'Heroic Origins' as an amalgam of theme and background, maybe riffing a bit on the basic 5e background concept, but with a little more pizzazz (see 5e has some good stuff).The other challenge with PP and ED is the way they often challenge the campaign organization in some fashion. Like, most players aren't thinking a lot about what their transition into Paragon is going to be like, what story it will tell. So, typically people get to level 11 and then suddenly they're going through all these choices and picking one. Now, hopefully its really thematic, and ties into the character's themes/drives/agenda, but it can be a challenge to try to make that all happen in a way that feels organic. That wouldn't be a big issue, except you have 5 PCs who are all going to pretty much level at the same time, and now you need to handle this 5x over. There are obvious plot devices, like some Heroic Tier capstone event that unleashes magical power on the characters or whatever, but I didn't find it super easy to manage 5 simultaneous mini-apotheoses at one time.The same goes for EDs of course. Everyone hits 21 at the end of the Saturday Evening Session. Now all of a sudden the players are asking themselves what ED they're going to pick, but really it feels like it should be more organic and seem like "Oh, yeah, this was always DESTINED to be my fate!" It is certainly highly achievable in the sense of a character's story arc, but the 5-at-once thing can be a bit crazy.I mean, one option would be something like a mechanism for a solo 'destiny quest' for each character, though many groups might not find that interesting. Another would be a bit more staggered progression, which 4e doesn't rule out, but then you have the problem of a mixed party where some are Heroes and some are Paragons. Its not unworkable, but 4e loves its even playing fields amongst PCs. Anyway, its just an interesting contrast of 4e vs other editions, and an interesting kind of challenge it creates in terms of play and narrative. I guess the last word on it is, the good far outweighs the challenges. Don't muck with PP and ED! (conceptually at least, go to town on the mechanics).</blockquote>

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