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How would you redo 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Kannik" data-source="post: 8951243" data-attributes="member: 984"><p>I think this is where a lot of 'issues' with SCs came from, was the poor use of them in modules, especially the organized play modules that were designed to be played quick, fast, in 4h chunks, without much nuance (to keep it short). So the presentation in the modules often was "here's an SC, the players should roll X, Y, Z, and they succeed." They felt very rote, gatekeepery, and divorced from any narrative. And/or they would show up in the oddest of places, because 'every LFR module needs a skill challenge'. And then DMs would copy that for their tables.</p><p></p><p>Again, I was unusual in that I never really read how to run SCs from the DMG/DMG2 and went off my understanding from that pre-release blurb I read. IIRC, the first SC I ran was the same one from that blurb... the players were in a town and the villagers had been mind controlled and were walking towards the lake to drown themselves. I set the scene and let the players say what they were going to do... the mage did some prestidigitation and arcana checks to redirect the villagers and snap them out of it, the fighter pushed carts and other objects to create impediments, the rogue ran up on a rooftop to get in front of the villagers... and other actions I don't remember now <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />. But I ran it with their creative impulses until the challenge had been successfully completed and narrated the end game of the villagers breaking from their control before any of them got more than their knees wet. Good times. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>This happened as well to some degree with the Paladin and especially the Fighter, who wasn't so damaging anymore but could take a tonne of punishment. The historical expectation didn't quite meet with the narrower intent of the classes. (Later classes got a bit better with secondary roles and more choices up front that could customize towards different roles.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>One Idea I've toyed with (but never tried) is something I've called half-vantage, which is like advantage except that you only look at the even numbers on the second die. So if you rolled a 6 on your first die and a 19 on your second die, you're out of luck... you got a 6. The same could be done for half-dis-vantage (ugh, not pleasant to say) except you look at the odd numbers on the second die. </p><p></p><p>It's a bit fiddly, you have to have a die that's explicitly your second die, but it does allow for a smaller bonus/penalty that full dis/advantage. </p><p></p><p>One thing I do like about the dis/advantage mechanism (which would stay the same with the half-vantage idea) vs a +2 or +5 or whatever is that it works only to raise your average, without increasing the maximum you can roll, so I find it models certain circumstances better. (But I'm not committed to it enough to not go back to + values or making each + or - a d4 or something.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>One of my first playtests with 4e was hilarious in an opposite (and good!) way to this... their opponent was using a spiked chain and was decked out in spiked armour. During the combat, he wraps his chain around a character and, as a minor action, pulls them into his armour for an additional 1d10 damage. And the players, instead of being "Wait, how did he do that? Isn't that supposed to be a grapple check? I don't see the rules for that in the combat chapter, shouldn't I get..." which would happen with the minutia-covering bits of 3e/3.5e, instead went wide eyed and shouted "Holy Pelor, that was awesome and bad ass!"</p><p></p><p>Strong narrative engagement. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kannik, post: 8951243, member: 984"] I think this is where a lot of 'issues' with SCs came from, was the poor use of them in modules, especially the organized play modules that were designed to be played quick, fast, in 4h chunks, without much nuance (to keep it short). So the presentation in the modules often was "here's an SC, the players should roll X, Y, Z, and they succeed." They felt very rote, gatekeepery, and divorced from any narrative. And/or they would show up in the oddest of places, because 'every LFR module needs a skill challenge'. And then DMs would copy that for their tables. Again, I was unusual in that I never really read how to run SCs from the DMG/DMG2 and went off my understanding from that pre-release blurb I read. IIRC, the first SC I ran was the same one from that blurb... the players were in a town and the villagers had been mind controlled and were walking towards the lake to drown themselves. I set the scene and let the players say what they were going to do... the mage did some prestidigitation and arcana checks to redirect the villagers and snap them out of it, the fighter pushed carts and other objects to create impediments, the rogue ran up on a rooftop to get in front of the villagers... and other actions I don't remember now :P. But I ran it with their creative impulses until the challenge had been successfully completed and narrated the end game of the villagers breaking from their control before any of them got more than their knees wet. Good times. :) This happened as well to some degree with the Paladin and especially the Fighter, who wasn't so damaging anymore but could take a tonne of punishment. The historical expectation didn't quite meet with the narrower intent of the classes. (Later classes got a bit better with secondary roles and more choices up front that could customize towards different roles.) One Idea I've toyed with (but never tried) is something I've called half-vantage, which is like advantage except that you only look at the even numbers on the second die. So if you rolled a 6 on your first die and a 19 on your second die, you're out of luck... you got a 6. The same could be done for half-dis-vantage (ugh, not pleasant to say) except you look at the odd numbers on the second die. It's a bit fiddly, you have to have a die that's explicitly your second die, but it does allow for a smaller bonus/penalty that full dis/advantage. One thing I do like about the dis/advantage mechanism (which would stay the same with the half-vantage idea) vs a +2 or +5 or whatever is that it works only to raise your average, without increasing the maximum you can roll, so I find it models certain circumstances better. (But I'm not committed to it enough to not go back to + values or making each + or - a d4 or something.) One of my first playtests with 4e was hilarious in an opposite (and good!) way to this... their opponent was using a spiked chain and was decked out in spiked armour. During the combat, he wraps his chain around a character and, as a minor action, pulls them into his armour for an additional 1d10 damage. And the players, instead of being "Wait, how did he do that? Isn't that supposed to be a grapple check? I don't see the rules for that in the combat chapter, shouldn't I get..." which would happen with the minutia-covering bits of 3e/3.5e, instead went wide eyed and shouted "Holy Pelor, that was awesome and bad ass!" Strong narrative engagement. :) [/QUOTE]
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