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How would you redo 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sanglorian" data-source="post: 8955281" data-attributes="member: 83822"><p>As my 4e retroclone, <a href="https://sanglorian.github.io/orcus/" target="_blank">Orcus</a> has a lot of what I would change about 4e. </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shared power lists, so classes with overlapping scopes can use the same powers.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Threats", the awkwardly named collection of hazards, traps and other terrain and encounter features, so GMs can quickly build thematic, dynamic, level-appropriate encounters.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Extended challenges with timers to avoid the problem of "aid another" being a preferable strategy. I really dislike skill challenges; I don't think extended challenges really fix what I dislike about them, but it's a step in the right direction.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Powers with clear out-of-combat uses that are still useful in combat (particularly poisons and shapechanging powers). I thought the assassin's daily power poisons were so clever in providing for an out-of-combat use without diluting the combat effectiveness at all.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An alternative to feats (kits, which also fill the theme design space; noting they only cover the first 10 levels worth of feats).</li> </ul><p>But because Orcus is 99% compatible with 4e, I've been restrained in how much I can change. If I were starting from scratch, I would consider: </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A completely different approach to skill challenges, drawing on Spycraft's dramatic conflicts and <a href="https://strangeflight.blog/2018/11/23/challenge-crawls/" target="_blank">challenge crawls</a>. Perhaps rituals could be folded in to this category at the same time.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Converting maintain powers to stances, so there's a single "concentrate on one power" mechanic.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tags for weapons and cantrips, inspired by Dungeon World (messy, forceful, fiery, etc), which would have consistent riders across PCs and monsters, and replace at-will attack powers.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Adventure and dungeon pacing mechanics, to encourage a four-encounter day without making it mandatory. I reckon a lot of the difficulty converting modules/adventures from other editions to 4e would disappear if an encounter typically took place over a few different rooms.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The escalation die from 13th Age, to make combat wrap up faster but also discourage "going nova" early.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No magic items except artifacts, wondrous items and consumables.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Action points allow you to take a reaction or interrupt, based on a trigger you specified earlier. This would make combat much more dynamic, without requiring fiddly and circumstantial immediate action powers.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A way to convert monsters of higher levels to elites and solos and lower levels to minions, instead of having different stat blocks for each group.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Condition ladders, so a dazed monster is easier to stun, a higher-level monster might only be charmed instead of dominated, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Long" actions, which are declared on a player's turn and activate at the start of the player's next turn, provided they haven't been disrupted in the meantime. This would completely change combat tactics and trying to anticipate the enemy - if the goblin sorcerer starts casting a spell, do you target them in an attempt to disrupt it? With or without spending a minor action trying to identify it first? Or do you assume it's a bluff and go for the hobgoblin captain as you originally planned?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players all acting, then monsters all acting. With action point-based immediate actions, combat would remain somewhat of a back and forth. My untested theory is that it would make tactics easier, and it'd make "end on your [the target's] next turn" conditions a bit cleaner.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rethinking utility powers. There's no particular reason why these all have to be powers; making them a mix of powers and static features would open up the design space. I'd also gate utilities mostly behind skills, but allow for ancestries, classes and feats to unlock utilities too. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Merging themes, paragon paths and 3e-style prestige classes into PF2e-style archetypes (feat trees).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Morale rules to speed up combats.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Simplifying buffs down to just two: bless and fortify. These would be represented by dice that can be added to attacks/damage and saves/defenses respectively. </li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sanglorian, post: 8955281, member: 83822"] As my 4e retroclone, [URL='https://sanglorian.github.io/orcus/']Orcus[/URL] has a lot of what I would change about 4e. [LIST] [*]Shared power lists, so classes with overlapping scopes can use the same powers. [*]"Threats", the awkwardly named collection of hazards, traps and other terrain and encounter features, so GMs can quickly build thematic, dynamic, level-appropriate encounters. [*]Extended challenges with timers to avoid the problem of "aid another" being a preferable strategy. I really dislike skill challenges; I don't think extended challenges really fix what I dislike about them, but it's a step in the right direction. [*]Powers with clear out-of-combat uses that are still useful in combat (particularly poisons and shapechanging powers). I thought the assassin's daily power poisons were so clever in providing for an out-of-combat use without diluting the combat effectiveness at all. [*]An alternative to feats (kits, which also fill the theme design space; noting they only cover the first 10 levels worth of feats). [/LIST] But because Orcus is 99% compatible with 4e, I've been restrained in how much I can change. If I were starting from scratch, I would consider: [LIST] [*]A completely different approach to skill challenges, drawing on Spycraft's dramatic conflicts and [URL='https://strangeflight.blog/2018/11/23/challenge-crawls/']challenge crawls[/URL]. Perhaps rituals could be folded in to this category at the same time. [*]Converting maintain powers to stances, so there's a single "concentrate on one power" mechanic. [*]Tags for weapons and cantrips, inspired by Dungeon World (messy, forceful, fiery, etc), which would have consistent riders across PCs and monsters, and replace at-will attack powers. [*]Adventure and dungeon pacing mechanics, to encourage a four-encounter day without making it mandatory. I reckon a lot of the difficulty converting modules/adventures from other editions to 4e would disappear if an encounter typically took place over a few different rooms. [*]The escalation die from 13th Age, to make combat wrap up faster but also discourage "going nova" early. [*]No magic items except artifacts, wondrous items and consumables. [*]Action points allow you to take a reaction or interrupt, based on a trigger you specified earlier. This would make combat much more dynamic, without requiring fiddly and circumstantial immediate action powers. [*]A way to convert monsters of higher levels to elites and solos and lower levels to minions, instead of having different stat blocks for each group. [*]Condition ladders, so a dazed monster is easier to stun, a higher-level monster might only be charmed instead of dominated, etc. [*]"Long" actions, which are declared on a player's turn and activate at the start of the player's next turn, provided they haven't been disrupted in the meantime. This would completely change combat tactics and trying to anticipate the enemy - if the goblin sorcerer starts casting a spell, do you target them in an attempt to disrupt it? With or without spending a minor action trying to identify it first? Or do you assume it's a bluff and go for the hobgoblin captain as you originally planned? [*]Players all acting, then monsters all acting. With action point-based immediate actions, combat would remain somewhat of a back and forth. My untested theory is that it would make tactics easier, and it'd make "end on your [the target's] next turn" conditions a bit cleaner. [*]Rethinking utility powers. There's no particular reason why these all have to be powers; making them a mix of powers and static features would open up the design space. I'd also gate utilities mostly behind skills, but allow for ancestries, classes and feats to unlock utilities too. [*]Merging themes, paragon paths and 3e-style prestige classes into PF2e-style archetypes (feat trees). [*]Morale rules to speed up combats. [*]Simplifying buffs down to just two: bless and fortify. These would be represented by dice that can be added to attacks/damage and saves/defenses respectively. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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