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How would you redo 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8968436" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>The silly thing is, what did it fix? On the skill side the BIG COMPLAINT was that my 30th level Wizard with a 12 STR is now able to beat your average athletic peasant (lets grant him a +2 Ability bonus and a +5 Proficiency bonus for +7) because of nothing but his +15 level bonus. Yeah, technically its true, though even at this point he won't win EVERY time, just 80% of the time. The question is "when will this come up?" and the answer is, never, never ever in a million billion years will this come up, especially not in the context of 4e's super heroic version of the D&D genre! Its a vacuous objection to a system that serves QUITE WELL for all the cases that it is meant to cover. Heck, if you need a sturdy 'peasant' to wrassle with your Wizard, just make him a level 30 minion and watch him kick ass. I mean, you must be meeting this guy in some astral realm or something, right? You sure as heck aren't hobnobbing with peasants back on Earth!</p><p></p><p>Likewise BA, I'm just not seeing any point to this. It requires that, if anything like the established power curve is to exist, HUGE increases in high level monster/PC hit points. If you are now completely changing the power curve in 4e, this is a totally different game! 4e is a game where mighty heroes dare to seek out conflicts with the very gods themselves, and even BECOME exarchs/demigods. No way I am interested in a game where high level PCs need to worry about orcs, unless they are the baddest demon-blood-infused super orcs!</p><p></p><p>Nor do the complaints about enchantment and requirement to be totally decked with items really hold much water. Even back in the early days of 4e we already figured out inherent bonus, long before it was made a 'rule' (I think it was first a rule in DS and then included in DMG3 IIRC). I mean, sure you WANT item enchantments, but they're not vital to most classes success (warlocks may be an exception, lol). Still, as you say, its FAR more vital to have such items in 5e where no alternatives really exist and the better high level items provide really significant advantages. </p><p></p><p>I really never saw the flavor arguments either. I mean, in my first campaign, at paragon the PCs were like: A dwarf fighter wielding his father's flaming war axe that was infused with balor blood in a trial by combat with a demon; A chosen STR cleric wielding the sword and shield of an ancient hero and prophesied to save the land; A starlock with a secondary hag pact that was slowly being taken over by his rod; And I forget what the rogue had, but it was another pretty bad-assed weapon that had a history of some sort, etc! The whole system is so dripping with flavor, and easy ways to tie stuff into the PC's history, actions, and build choices that I almost find it hard to understand when I see games where the above sort of stuff isn't the norm!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8968436, member: 82106"] The silly thing is, what did it fix? On the skill side the BIG COMPLAINT was that my 30th level Wizard with a 12 STR is now able to beat your average athletic peasant (lets grant him a +2 Ability bonus and a +5 Proficiency bonus for +7) because of nothing but his +15 level bonus. Yeah, technically its true, though even at this point he won't win EVERY time, just 80% of the time. The question is "when will this come up?" and the answer is, never, never ever in a million billion years will this come up, especially not in the context of 4e's super heroic version of the D&D genre! Its a vacuous objection to a system that serves QUITE WELL for all the cases that it is meant to cover. Heck, if you need a sturdy 'peasant' to wrassle with your Wizard, just make him a level 30 minion and watch him kick ass. I mean, you must be meeting this guy in some astral realm or something, right? You sure as heck aren't hobnobbing with peasants back on Earth! Likewise BA, I'm just not seeing any point to this. It requires that, if anything like the established power curve is to exist, HUGE increases in high level monster/PC hit points. If you are now completely changing the power curve in 4e, this is a totally different game! 4e is a game where mighty heroes dare to seek out conflicts with the very gods themselves, and even BECOME exarchs/demigods. No way I am interested in a game where high level PCs need to worry about orcs, unless they are the baddest demon-blood-infused super orcs! Nor do the complaints about enchantment and requirement to be totally decked with items really hold much water. Even back in the early days of 4e we already figured out inherent bonus, long before it was made a 'rule' (I think it was first a rule in DS and then included in DMG3 IIRC). I mean, sure you WANT item enchantments, but they're not vital to most classes success (warlocks may be an exception, lol). Still, as you say, its FAR more vital to have such items in 5e where no alternatives really exist and the better high level items provide really significant advantages. I really never saw the flavor arguments either. I mean, in my first campaign, at paragon the PCs were like: A dwarf fighter wielding his father's flaming war axe that was infused with balor blood in a trial by combat with a demon; A chosen STR cleric wielding the sword and shield of an ancient hero and prophesied to save the land; A starlock with a secondary hag pact that was slowly being taken over by his rod; And I forget what the rogue had, but it was another pretty bad-assed weapon that had a history of some sort, etc! The whole system is so dripping with flavor, and easy ways to tie stuff into the PC's history, actions, and build choices that I almost find it hard to understand when I see games where the above sort of stuff isn't the norm! [/QUOTE]
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