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How would you redo 4e?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8987026" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>This is why the early 4e text (monsters and the core rules) talk about PCs making Athletics or Acrobatics checks to escape vs a monster's defenses. Because defenses don't especially track expected skill bonus very well, later monster stat blocks include explicit escape DCs in most cases, although the general rule was left in place. Clearly it didn't prove too workable. </p><p></p><p>A level 1 monster's baseline FORT would be (DMG1 p184) Level + 12, so 13 (and that might vary by a point or two, at most). A level 1 PC might have a skill bonus of 0 + 4 + 5 = +9, and maybe another racial +1 for a max of +10 (you might get to +11 at best). So, for a strong Ath/Acr character a level 1 escape check is very close to certain. Of course if your skill bonus is more in the +3 range then its more like 50/50, roughly. So overall its not bad, but some PCs are basically going to escape with almost 100% certainty at level 1.</p><p></p><p>Baseline skill bonus at level 30 is +15 and certainly you'd have a couple points beyond that in basically everything by then, so lets call it +17 as a rock bottom. Meanwhile a monster has a defense of 42, baseline. At this point, if you are bad at a skill, escape has gone from 50/50 to hopeless. I'd note that the hard DC for level 30 is ALSO 42 by the most recent DC by level chart. A character with serious bonuses though? They will have +15 + 5 + 9 = +29 before any feats/items/etc. Some EDs could increase that to +30 (like Demigod) and then we start to get into the bonuses, which can easily score you another 10 points if you focus on that. I've seen 30th level PCs with +42 skill bonuses, meaning they never fail anything, period in their speciality (and that's fine IMHO). But even if you have a more modest +36 or so, that's going to mean you still escape a grab the vast majority of the time (and you probably have ways to insure that happens, like rerolls and such). </p><p></p><p>Honestly, the biggest problem is the RANGE. With attacks no PC will ever make a horrible attack at +15 at 30th, which would be rock bottom. It would simply be worthless. You can ALWAYS do better! OTOH if a situation calls for a certain skill, you're stuck with your paltry +15 level bonus, too bad for you! So its not so much that the skill bonuses are WRONG, its that they diverge so much from good to bad at high level, and you are stuck actually using those bad numbers (admittedly its situational, hopefully you just never get stuck this way).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8987026, member: 82106"] This is why the early 4e text (monsters and the core rules) talk about PCs making Athletics or Acrobatics checks to escape vs a monster's defenses. Because defenses don't especially track expected skill bonus very well, later monster stat blocks include explicit escape DCs in most cases, although the general rule was left in place. Clearly it didn't prove too workable. A level 1 monster's baseline FORT would be (DMG1 p184) Level + 12, so 13 (and that might vary by a point or two, at most). A level 1 PC might have a skill bonus of 0 + 4 + 5 = +9, and maybe another racial +1 for a max of +10 (you might get to +11 at best). So, for a strong Ath/Acr character a level 1 escape check is very close to certain. Of course if your skill bonus is more in the +3 range then its more like 50/50, roughly. So overall its not bad, but some PCs are basically going to escape with almost 100% certainty at level 1. Baseline skill bonus at level 30 is +15 and certainly you'd have a couple points beyond that in basically everything by then, so lets call it +17 as a rock bottom. Meanwhile a monster has a defense of 42, baseline. At this point, if you are bad at a skill, escape has gone from 50/50 to hopeless. I'd note that the hard DC for level 30 is ALSO 42 by the most recent DC by level chart. A character with serious bonuses though? They will have +15 + 5 + 9 = +29 before any feats/items/etc. Some EDs could increase that to +30 (like Demigod) and then we start to get into the bonuses, which can easily score you another 10 points if you focus on that. I've seen 30th level PCs with +42 skill bonuses, meaning they never fail anything, period in their speciality (and that's fine IMHO). But even if you have a more modest +36 or so, that's going to mean you still escape a grab the vast majority of the time (and you probably have ways to insure that happens, like rerolls and such). Honestly, the biggest problem is the RANGE. With attacks no PC will ever make a horrible attack at +15 at 30th, which would be rock bottom. It would simply be worthless. You can ALWAYS do better! OTOH if a situation calls for a certain skill, you're stuck with your paltry +15 level bonus, too bad for you! So its not so much that the skill bonuses are WRONG, its that they diverge so much from good to bad at high level, and you are stuck actually using those bad numbers (admittedly its situational, hopefully you just never get stuck this way). [/QUOTE]
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