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Message: <blockquote data-quote="humble minion" data-source="post: 8050891" data-attributes="member: 5948">I just pulled out my 3e RL setting book.  No literal banning of classes - but class features were rewritten all over the place.  Paladin's detect evil doesn't work properly, Bardic Knowledge is the same, Turn Undead is hamstrung, a whole bunch of spells are modified to corrupt the caster or not work properly, familiars and animal companions and paladin mounts are actually evil spirits trying to tempt you into corruption, etc etc etc.  There's 13 entire pages of the book devoted to setting out the modifications of dozens and dozens of standard PHB spells - so that they fit the themes of the setting better.  Because the themes of Ravenloft were all about mystery (that couldn't be solved in 6 seconds with the casting of a divination spell), gothic-horror-inspired undead monsters being scary (rather than just fodder to be promptly blasted into nonexistence by the cleric), and the inherent corruptive effect of dark (necromantic, demon-summoning, etc) magic, and the isolation of the Darklords in their own prison/domain (which loses its impact if a druid can just Pass Without Trace the hell out of there)Even the 3e iteration of ravenloft that you hold up as an example recognises that the PHB as-written is not a one-size-fits-all system that's universally applicable in every jot and tittle to every campaign setting.  Sometimes changes from the base ruleset are necessary to evoke the themes and feel of the setting.  I think the same holds true for the 5e PHB and Dark Sun.Given that approximately a quarter of the books WotC has released are adventures - which are generally only bought by GMs - I don't think this is a significant problem in this case.  And it's just ridiculous to claim that DS necessarily renders the PHB obsolete.Is there really that much demand for Dark Sun to be 'hard mode'?  I'm not seeing it in this thread, to be honest.  And certainly not 'replicating the 2e box set to a fault'!  There's much more interest in preserving the themes and basic principles of the original setting, and the higher-quality bits of its later supplements and lore.  'Hard mode' comes from GMing style more than anything.  If your Dark Sun GM enforces stuff like thirst rules, and imposes consequences if you cast wizard spells out in the open where people can see, and runs the city-states like templar-ridden tyrannies where the populace lives in fear, then you're playing on hard mode regardless of the ruleset.  If you really need 'Hard Mode', the place for it is probably in Xanathars' 2 as a universal set of optional rules people can use in whatever setting they like (Hard Mode Strahd!)As for your list, I can see no reason whatsoever to bar barbarians (especially!) or monks from DS, though personally i'd limit a couple of the more magical subclasses.  Clerics (elemental or the templar version) have been in Dark Sun since forever, I honestly don't know why you'd assume they wouldn't make the cut.  I can certainly see room for all three PHB paladin subclasses as well, perhaps just with some changes to the tenets of their oaths (I've babbled on about this at great length earlier in the thread, I'll refrain from doing so again).  4e had warlocks as templars, that's not my favoured interpretation personally, but it can certainly work ok.  As for Xanathar's, I could very easily see Zealot barbarians in the service of Raam, Urik, or Guistenal, Shepherd druids are fine, as are Samurai, Cavaliers, Drunken Masters, and Kensai - Sun Soul Monks I think are actually a great fit.  Either of the paladin oaths here can work, especially Oath of Conquest, no problems with any of the three of the rogues subclasses either.  You could even make a case for the Shadow Sorcerer as someone who Rajaat or the Shadow giants have touched from beyond the Black.I really think you're overstating the case here.  You're railing against restrictions that I don't think anyone is actually asking for.I've heard exactly zero calls to mass-ban spells.  Nerfing water/food creation is a popular idea, and MAYBE planar or summoning spells.  That leaves a hell of a lot - much less than was modified in the 3e Ravenloft book that you were talking about earlier.  Same with backgrounds and equipment.  (And really, who's planning on banning backgrounds?!  There's still nobles, urchins, sages, hermits, soldiers, charlatans, artisans, etc etc etc on Athas!)From someone who was complaining about straw men one paragraph earlier, that's more than a bit rich.</blockquote>

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