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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Olrox17" data-source="post: 7018431" data-attributes="member: 6801397">EDIT: I’m back after a year of playtesting the threshold system. I’m editing this post with all the changes, fixes and improvements made in the last year.Check the following spoiler block if you wish to read a long explanation of why I embarked on this project. You can skip it.[SPOILER]There are two things that I really like about 5e that were missing from third and fourth edition: bounded accuracy (and bounded “numbers” in general) and the fact that magic items aren’t needed to keep up with the game’s math.The lack of continuously inflating attack bonuses and defenses on the monster’s side removes the need for a “treadmill” of magic items. The constant need for larger plusses is finally gone, and I like that.There is one problem though. Or at least, it’s a problem for me, but I’m pretty sure it’s a problem for a lot of other fifth edition players and DMs. And the problem is, saving throws & save DCs scaling, coupled with hard control spells and abilities.I think we’re all familiar with the issue. Save DCs rise constantly, both on monsters stat blocks and on PCs character sheets, but saving throw bonuses to not climb at the same pace.On the PCs side, the consequence is that at first level a typical PC will have 2 good saves it can pass with an 8 or so, another couple of decent saves where it gets a 50/50 shot, and one or two bad saves where a 13 or 14 is needed, but the higher level it gets the more things get weird.At level 20, the PC will usually still have two good saves, and maybe also another decent one with the Resilient Focus feat, but all other saves will be terrible. Like, need to roll a 18, 19 or 20 kind of terrible.On the monster side, things are more varied, but as a rule of thumb, if a monster doesn’t have legendary resistance IT WILL be hard controlled by your average PC party. There are far too many options: hold person, phantasmal force, suggestion, maximilian’s earthen grasp, fear, hypnotic pattern, stinking cloud, banishment, confusion, Evard’s black tentacles, otilukes’s resilient sphere, polymorph, watery sphere, etc.My first idea to solve this issue was to give a scaling bonus to non-proficient saving throws to everyone, both monsters and PCs. Something like half proficiency, to keep to lowest saves from being auto-fails.However, this is not enough IMO. Thing is, as you get to higher level in this game, control effects NOT ONLY get harder DCs, but they also get more common (read spammable) AND more powerful (very long durations with no save to end, large AoEs etc). Heck, forcecage and maze allow NO save.Several spells in the game already use a form of HP threshold. Sleep, Color Spray, Power Words. If the target has more than a certain amount of HP, the spell is going to do less, or nothing at all.What I did, in short, is extending the system to every spell and ability in the game that inflicts major control over the target.But I don’t want to make it so it works like an immunity. Because casting hold person on the black knight just for the DM to say that he has too many Hit Points to be affected by the spell is, well, boring. It’s just a waste of a spell slot and it feels unfair.How does it work then? Well, if the black knight fails the saving throw against hold person but does have more Hit Points than the spell’s HP threshold, he’s still going to suffer a negative effect. It’s just not going to be full-blown paralysis. Rather, his speed is halved for the same duration.So that’s how it works. Hard control spells and abilities will only inflict a partial, lesser effect on a target with more current HP than the threshold. One important thing to note is that this system relies on a very specific notion of Hit Points, that are not just "meat" but also "a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck" (cit. PHB).[/SPOILER]The HP Threshold SystemControl SpellsEvery spell in the game that inflicts a debilitating condition is now defined a control spell.Control spells will inflict a different effect than normal when their target’s CURRENT hp are above a certain threshold.Increase the HP threshold of a spell if you’re casting it on a higher level spell slot.For example, phantasmal force, a lvl 2 spell, normally has a 60 hp threshold. By casting it with a level 5 spell slot, phantasmal force now has a 100 hp threshold.If the target’s current HPs drop below the threshold while the spell is still affecting it, the target looses the threshold’s protection and the spell reverts to its normal effects.For example, hold person, cast with a level 2 spell slot, has a 60 HPs threshold. It won’t exercise its full effect on a fighter with 90 HPs. However, if the fighter takes damage and drops to 60 HPs while the spell is still active on it, the fighter is now paralyzed as per the normal effect of hold person.There's a table for single target spells (such as phantasmal force, or hold person cast at its lowest level), and a table for multiple target spells (such as hypnotic pattern, or hold person cast at 3rd level or higher)Single Target Spell HP Threshold[SPOILER]Level 1 slot: 40 hpLevel 2 slot: 60 hpLevel 3 slot: 80 hpLevel 4 slot: 100 hpLevel 5 slot: 120 hpLevel 6 slot: 140 hpLevel 7 slot: 160 hpLevel 8 slot: 180 hpLevel 9 slot: 200 hp[/SPOILER]Multiple Target Spell HP Threshold[SPOILER]Level 1 slot: 30 hpLevel 2 slot: 45 hpLevel 3 slot: 60 hpLevel 4 slot: 75 hpLevel 5 slot: 90 hpLevel 6 slot: 105 hpLevel 7 slot: 120 hpLevel 8 slot: 135 hpLevel 9 slot: 150 hp[/SPOILER]Logic behind the HP tables[SPOILER]The numbers were not picked randomly. A look at the DMG Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating should quickly reveal that each spell level is aimed to influence a certain defensive Challenge Rating. An example:An AoE sixth level spell has a 105 HP threshold. A monster with defensive CR 3 has between 101 and 115 hp. So, under this design, a AoE sixth level spell is meant to exercise its full effects on a crowd of monsters with a defensive CR up to 3.For comparison, a single target sixth level spell has a 140 HP threshold. A monster with defensive CR 5 has between 131 and 145 hp. So, under this design, a single target sixth level spell is meant to exercise its full effects on a monster with a defensive CR up to 5.[/SPOILER]Here’s the list of every control spells currently in the game and how their effect is changed on a target whose current HPs are higher than the threshold.Spell ListLevel 1[SPOILER]Animal Friendship: no changeBane: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Cause Fear: the target has disadvantage on attack rolls instead of being frightened.Charm Person: no change.Compelled Duel: no change.Entangle: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.Ensnaring Strike: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.Snare: Dexterity saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Tasha’s Hideous Laughter: target is not incapacitated.Wrathful Smite: Wisdom check action to break free succeeds automatically.[/SPOILER]Level 2[SPOILER]Blindness/Deafness: spell lasts only 1 round on the target.Crown of Madness: Wisdom saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Earthbind: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Strength  saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Heat Metal: when taking damage, target does not get disadvantage to attack rolls and ability checks.Hold Person: target is not paralyzed, but its speed is halved for the same duration.Levitate: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Constitution  saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.Phantasmal Force: Investigation check action to break free succeeds automatically.Ray of Enfeeblement: Constitution saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Suggestion: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Web: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.[/SPOILER]Level 3[SPOILER]Bestow Curse: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Blinding Smite: spell lasts only 1 round on the target.Enemies Abound: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Intelligence saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Fear: the target has disadvantage on attack rolls instead of being frightened.Hypnotic Pattern: target is not incapacitated, its speed is not reduced to 0.Slow: Wisdom saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Stinking Cloud: target doesn’t have to waste its action, but it’s poisoned until the end of its current turn.[/SPOILER]Level 4[SPOILER]Banishment: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Charm Monster: no change.Compulsion: Wisdom saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Confusion: Wisdom saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Dominate Beast: the target is just charmed, nothing else.Evard’s Black Tentacles: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.Otilukes’s Resilient Sphere: Dexterity saving throw to avoid the effect has advantage.Phantasmal Killer: the target has disadvantage on attack rolls instead of being frightened.Polymorph: unwilling target is restrained instead of transformed. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Sickening Radiance: target takes no exhaustion levels.Watery Sphere: Strength saving throw to end the effect has advantage.[/SPOILER]Level 5[SPOILER]Bigby’s Hand: target has advantage on Strength checks against the hand.Dispel Evil and Good (dismissal): at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target. After three failed saving throws, the target stays banished with no chance of coming back.Dominate Person: the target is just charmed, nothing else.Dream: Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect has advantage.Geas: no change.Hold Monster: target is not paralyzed, but its speed is halved for the same duration.Modify Memory: target is not incapacitated and is still aware of his surroundings; no memory changes.Synaptic Static: Intelligence saving throw to end the effect has advantage.Telekinesis: target has advantage on Strength checks against the caster.Transmute Rock: target is not restrained, but its speed is halved for the same duration.Wall of Force: target gets a Dexterity save, with advantage, to move up to its speed, as a reaction, before the wall forms.Wall of Stone: Dexterity saving throw to move out has advantage.[/SPOILER]Level 6[SPOILER]Bones of the Earth: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.Eyebite: spell lasts only 1 round on the target.Flesh to Stone: target is not restrained, but its speed is halved for the same duration. Effect doesn’t become permanent at the end of concentration.Magic Jar: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Mass Suggestion: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere: Strength check action to break free of ice succeeds automaticallyOtto’s Irresistible Dance: target gets a Wisdom save to negate the spell entirely, Wisdom save action to break free succeeds automatically.Sunbeam: target gets disadvantage on attacks rolls instead of being blinded.Wall of Ice: target gets a Dexterity save, with advantage, to move up to its speed as a reaction before the wall forms, taking the 10d6 damage if passing through the forming wall’s space.[/SPOILER]Level 7[SPOILER]Forcecage: target gets a Dexterity save, with advantage, to move up to its speed, as a reaction, before the cage forms.Plane Shift: at the end of each of its turns, an unwilling target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target. After three failed saving throws, the target stays banished with no chance of coming back.Prismatic Spray: Indigo color works like flesh to stone. If a target is banished to another plane by the violet color, at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target. After three failed saving throws, the target stays banished with no chance of coming back.Reverse Gravity: Dexterity saving throw to avoid the fall has advantage. At the end of each of its turns, a target can make a Constitution saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Symbol: at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a saving throw (Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma, depending on the symbol used). On a success, the spell ends on the target.Whirlwind: Strength check action to break free succeeds automatically.[/SPOILER]Level 8[SPOILER]Antipathy/Sympathy: spell lasts only 1 round on the target.Dominate Monster: the target is just charmed, nothing else.Feeblemind: spell lasts only 1 round on the target.Maze: target gets a Charisma save, with advantage, to negate the spell entirely.Sunburst: blindness lasts only 1 round on the target.[/SPOILER]Level 9[SPOILER]Prismatic Wall: initial blindness lasts 1 round rather than 1 minute. Indigo color works like flesh to stone. If a target is banished to another plane by the violet color, at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target. After three failed saving throws, the target stays banished with no chance of coming back.Weird: the target has disadvantage on attack rolls instead of being frightened.True Polymorph: unwilling target is restrained instead of transformed for same duration. Effect doesn’t become permanent at the end of concentration.Mass Polymorph: unwilling target is restrained instead of transformed. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.Psychic Scream: Intelligence saving throw to end the effect has advantage.[/SPOILER]Control Monster AbilitiesHP thresholds applies to monster abilities as well. Every monster ability in the game that inflicts a debilitating condition is now defined a control ability.Control abilities work just like control spells. The only difference is that monster abilities do not have spell levels, so they use different tables. These tables use the monster CR to determine HP thresholds.HP INFLUENCED BY CRSingle Target Ability HP Threshold[SPOILER]CR 0 3 hpCR 1/8 5 hpCR 1/4 10 hpCR 1/2 18 hpCR 1 34 hpCR 2 42 hpCR 3 58 hpCR 4 74 hpCR 5 98 hpCR 6 106 hpCR 7 122 hpCR 8 138 hpCR 9 154 hpCR 10 162 hpCR 11 202 hpCR 12 242 hpCR 13 256 hpCR 14 272 hpCR 15 288 hpCR 16 304 hpCR 17 320 hpCR 18 336 hpCR 19 352 hpCR 20 392 hpCR 21 440 hpCR 22 480 hpCR 23 520 hpCR 24 568 hpCR 25 616 hpCR 26 664 hpCR 27 704 hpCR 28 752 hpCR 29 800 hpCR 30 848 hp[/SPOILER]Multiple Target Ability HP Threshold[SPOILER]CR 0 2 hpCR 1/8 4 hpCR 1/4 8 hpCR 1/2 13 hpCR 1 26 hpCR 2 32 hpCR 3 44 hpCR 4 56 hpCR 5 74 hpCR 6 80 hpCR 7 92 hpCR 8 104 hpCR 9 116 hpCR 10 122 hpCR 11 152 hpCR 12 182 hpCR 13 192 hpCR 14 204 hpCR 15 216 hpCR 16 228 hpCR 17 240 hpCR 18 252 hpCR 19 264 hpCR 20 294 hpCR 21 330 hpCR 22 360 hpCR 23 390 hpCR 24 426 hpCR 25 462 hpCR 26 498 hpCR 27 528 hpCR 28 564 hpCR 29 600 hpCR 30 636 hp[/SPOILER]It would be way too long and exhausting to provide a lessened effect for each monster ability in the game, so the specifics are left to the DM’s discretion. When in doubt, the DM can use the spell list as reference.A ghost’s possession ability, for example, is similar enough to the magic jar spell that you can treat it the same way (at the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target).Optional Rule: Spell RecoveryIf the HP threshold system ends up feeling too harsh towards casters, consider implementing this rule: when you cast a control spell of 2nd level or higher, and the spell fails the impose any kind of effect on its targets, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast. If the spell has no targets to begin with, you don’t regain a spell slot.</blockquote>

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