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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6115932">I mean lets say Drow or Gith are normally &quot;tougher&quot; races.&nbsp; Well..WHY are they tougher races?&nbsp; Are they genetically superior races?&nbsp; If so, WHY are they genetically superior?&nbsp; Centuries of eugenics within the species I would imagine, but lets for a moment consider the implications of writing that into D&amp;D.&nbsp; I'm not sure I'm really okay with the idea of that being written into D&amp;D.&nbsp; I mean we're kind of used to it with the Drow, but how many humanoid races are going to be forced to join this because of the idea that they are &quot;naturally&quot; superior?I don't think these races are naturally or unnaturally superior, I think it's a perspective issue.&nbsp; The Drow, the Gith, the other creatures you and I as adventurers usually see are NOT representative of the whole.&nbsp; They are trained soldiers, trained assassins, clerics or wizards.&nbsp; We don't really run into &quot;Generic Gith Farmer&quot; or &quot;Generic Drow Townsfolk&quot;.&nbsp; We usually run into the Gith war party, or the Drow raider party or the evil temple to Lolth or whatever.&nbsp; Where on the other hand, we run into Bob the farm-hand and Debbie the milk-maid on a regular basis.&nbsp; I think our history of setting up races like Gith or Drow as cultureless evil-doers without all the mundanity of &quot;nice&quot; societies has led us to a point where we simply don't think of Drow commoners or untrained Gith.This is what I like about the concept of the &quot;Drow Noble&quot; and the &quot;Drow&quot;.&nbsp; The Drow noble represents the genetically-enhanced, bred-for-power part of society that we, as adventurers are familiar with, while the mundane &quot;Drow&quot; represents the every-day rabble that populate the majority of Drow society.&nbsp; I mean Drow society may encourage backstabbing and betrayal, but that doesn't mean that every Drow is a master assassin, it just means it's socially encouraged.A 5'-6' humanoid with an average build is not going to be significantly more powerful without some sort of underlying magical, genetic, or supernatural enhancement.&nbsp; And if we're going that route, I think we have to tread carefully to avoid setting the precedent that ALL non-humans MUST have this underlying quality to them in order for them to be superior to humans.IMO: All near-humans, such as elf-variants, short peoples, skinny peoples fat people's should have a &quot;core&quot; PC-based component to them.&nbsp; It keeps the math simple.&nbsp; Any additional elements are then layered on top as special feats, magical abilities, unnatural enhancement, templates or class levels.It keeps the math constant.&nbsp; For monstrous humanoids, lets emphaize that &quot;monstrous&quot;, add in &quot;young&quot;, &quot;mature&quot; or &quot;old&quot; templates, &quot;advanced&quot;, &quot;monstrous&quot;, &quot;brute&quot;, or some other thing.&nbsp; It keeps the math constant, this was one of the biggest flaws of pre-4e editions, editions that DDN is desperatley trying to imitate in an effort to recapture lost fans and Pathfinder players.&nbsp; What DDN cannot allow itsself to do is repeat the math irrelevant mish-mash that those editions became.&nbsp; If there's no logic, no reason, no underlying math behind the scenes then the game makes no sense, and we get all sorts of things that we had in previous editions where CRs were meaningless, LAs were irrelevant and there was no way we could discern if one fight or one foe or one class would be a 10 or a 1.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 6115932"] I mean lets say Drow or Gith are normally "tougher" races. Well..WHY are they tougher races? Are they genetically superior races? If so, WHY are they genetically superior? Centuries of eugenics within the species I would imagine, but lets for a moment consider the implications of writing that into D&D. I'm not sure I'm really okay with the idea of that being written into D&D. I mean we're kind of used to it with the Drow, but how many humanoid races are going to be forced to join this because of the idea that they are "naturally" superior? I don't think these races are naturally or unnaturally superior, I think it's a perspective issue. The Drow, the Gith, the other creatures you and I as adventurers usually see are NOT representative of the whole. They are trained soldiers, trained assassins, clerics or wizards. We don't really run into "Generic Gith Farmer" or "Generic Drow Townsfolk". We usually run into the Gith war party, or the Drow raider party or the evil temple to Lolth or whatever. Where on the other hand, we run into Bob the farm-hand and Debbie the milk-maid on a regular basis. I think our history of setting up races like Gith or Drow as cultureless evil-doers without all the mundanity of "nice" societies has led us to a point where we simply don't think of Drow commoners or untrained Gith. This is what I like about the concept of the "Drow Noble" and the "Drow". The Drow noble represents the genetically-enhanced, bred-for-power part of society that we, as adventurers are familiar with, while the mundane "Drow" represents the every-day rabble that populate the majority of Drow society. I mean Drow society may encourage backstabbing and betrayal, but that doesn't mean that every Drow is a master assassin, it just means it's socially encouraged. A 5'-6' humanoid with an average build is not going to be significantly more powerful without some sort of underlying magical, genetic, or supernatural enhancement. And if we're going that route, I think we have to tread carefully to avoid setting the precedent that ALL non-humans MUST have this underlying quality to them in order for them to be superior to humans. IMO: All near-humans, such as elf-variants, short peoples, skinny peoples fat people's should have a "core" PC-based component to them. It keeps the math simple. Any additional elements are then layered on top as special feats, magical abilities, unnatural enhancement, templates or class levels. It keeps the math constant. For monstrous humanoids, lets emphaize that "monstrous", add in "young", "mature" or "old" templates, "advanced", "monstrous", "brute", or some other thing. It keeps the math constant, this was one of the biggest flaws of pre-4e editions, editions that DDN is [I]desperatley[/I] trying to imitate in an effort to recapture lost fans and Pathfinder players. What DDN cannot allow itsself to do is repeat the math irrelevant mish-mash that those editions became. If there's no logic, no reason, no underlying math behind the scenes then the game makes no sense, and we get all sorts of things that we had in previous editions where CRs were meaningless, LAs were irrelevant and there was no way we could discern if one fight or one foe or one class would be a 10 or a 1. [/QUOTE]

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