Hybrids: Fixing the Armor Problem

[Stalker0]

I'm a big fan of the Hybrid rules. However, I find that many potential concepts are made inept by the way armor interacts in the game.

For example, a wizard/fighter has cloth armor only which doesn't give him the AC to mix it up in melee. Now the hybrid talent feat compensates for that, but generally that feat is needed to get a pertinent class features from one of the two classes....without that feat, hybrids are generally lackluster.

Here is a way to give hybrids better armor, but still make them pay for it.

Hybrids

Armor: Hybrids receive any armor or shield proficiency held by both classes. If either of the classes has a proficiency, the character may purchase that proficiency as a feat with no prereqs.

Armor Class Features: If any of your hybrid classes has an armor class feature (swordmage warding, monk unarmored defense, barbarian agility, etc) the character receives that benefit. If both classes have a benefit, the character must choose one of the two benefits to keep.



Example: A player wants to make a paladin/avenger hybrid (charisma and wisdom). Normally the character gets only cloth armor, and with no int or dex his AC would be abysmally low. With the new rule, the character has the ability to pick up plate armor as a feat. Normally this feat would require scale proficiency and some str/con....but since he has paladin as a hybrid class he ignores these prereqs. The character could also choose to pick up heavy shield proficiency as another feat.

Example2: A player has chosen to play a barbarian/swordmage (str/int). He has access to both the barbarian's agility and swordmages warding abilities. The character decides he wants to use a twohanded weapon, so he decides to keep the barbarian's agility ability, and loses the warding.

 

[Turtlejay]

I like it. I am currently playing a Warlord/Fighter, and part of the reason I went with Tactical Presence was the Int bonus to AC. I can see if I had chosen a class with even *less* armor proficiency how things would be worse.

Fighter/Wizard is really not too bad of a combination, since you will be pumping Int so Light armor is an option. Start with some stats geared towards eventual heavier armors.

My problem with my current PC, now 8th level, is that he is pretty darned squishy. He is only 1 point of AC lower than our main tank, but has something like 12 fewer HP's and only 8 surges. So he his a half of a defender, but often does not want to be hit since in all likelyhood he is the one that will be calling for a rest.

I do think that there needs to be some improvement with Armor Proficiencies, though. There are builds that would be perfectly viable if not for their horrible selection of armors.

Jay

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Given that most classes allow you to get the armour back as a feat, I think the solution is to allow the character to take as many hybrid feats as he wants - that way you can get the feel of the character being both classes.

Now, there may be power issues in allowing this, but from the 2 builds I've done (warlord/wizard & cleric/barbarian) the feats are a big enough tax to balance things out. Yes, it does mean multiclassing is pretty crappy in comparision unless done for the skill and the something extra (which sometimes is pretty decent), but IMHO asides from the odd sinurge (which my players won't go looking for), or for the reasons given before, multiclassing is pretty crappy even without hybriding being an option. Again, there may be sinurgees I haven't spotted, but from what I see its pretty balanced.

Indeed, hybriding certain classes can result in pretty gimp classes. For example, for a cleric/barbarian hybrid, both of the armour feats (the cleric one just gives you chain, the barbarian one just gives you barbarian agility) are pretty lack-luster in that they are pretty much on par with just spending a feat to get chain normally.

 

[Garthanos]

Given that most classes allow you to get the armour back as a feat, I think the solution is to allow the character to take as many hybrid feats as he wants - that way you can get the feel of the character being both classes..

You might be on to something here... but I can see how many class features might seem must have feats...

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Fair enough - but if one wants to be a warlord AND a wizard, it seems a bit cheap to make them have to choose between giving bonuses when they spend an action point and having a spell book.

 

[Turtlejay]

This is the tough balancing act with such rules. You do not want to create a situation where players can be as effective as either base class, but you still want to give them some of the flavor of said class. 4e has it a little easier in that powers carry much of the flavor, so assigning powers can go a long way towards that. I think allowing unlimited choice of the hybrid feats can end up swinging too far in the wrong direction.

I approve of a houserule allowing you to take one of the defensive feats, from either class. It has a cost, as it should, and it doesn't open the floodgates to abuse.

Jay

 

[Stalker0]

Given that most classes allow you to get the armour back as a feat, I think the solution is to allow the character to take as many hybrid feats as he wants - that way you can get the feel of the character being both classes.

I'll disagree here. If you let hybrid gain all class abilities through feats then the balance is shattered. Class abilities are far better than most feats, and hybrids who can take the full class abilities of both classes are now as good or better than a base class...then there is no point to having an alternative system.

That's why I want the armor to have a cost, I feel hybrid characters should pay a cost...but I don't want to force them to spend their previous hybrid talent just to have a survivable AC.

 

[malcolm_n]

Why charge heavy armor wearers for getting their higher AC bonus, but not light armor wearers? Just because one's a physical object and the other is (in essence) metaphysical doesn't mean they shouldn't both either carry a cost or no cost at all.

My suggestion would be to create a separate feat from Hybrid Talent, we'll call it Hybrid Defense for example. That feat would be as such:

HYBRID DEFENSE [hybrid]
Requirement: A hybrid class.
Benefit: You gain either training in the highest available armor or one armor increasing class feature of your hybrid classes.

This keeps the essence of the OP and doesn't let the barbarian/swordmage you describe get away without paying the same feat tax as the paladin/wizard. It also still keeps the feats down below one-half those required for multiclassing.

 

[Stalker0]

Why charge heavy armor wearers for getting their higher AC bonus, but not light armor wearers? Just because one's a physical object and the other is (in essence) metaphysical doesn't mean they shouldn't both either carry a cost or no cost at all.

My suggestion would be to create a separate feat from Hybrid Talent, we'll call it Hybrid Defense for example. That feat would be as such:

HYBRID DEFENSE [hybrid]
Requirement: A hybrid class.
Benefit: You gain either training in the highest available armor or one armor increasing class feature of your hybrid classes.

This keeps the essence of the OP and doesn't let the barbarian/swordmage you describe get away without paying the same feat tax as the paladin/wizard. It also still keeps the feats down below one-half those required for multiclassing.

A good point Malcolm and I like the idea.

 

[On Puget Sound]

How unbalanced would it be to allow hybrids to choose Hybrid Talent twice - once for each of their classes, but not allowed to choose two class features from the same class? Are there class features that would stack brokenly, in their hybrid-nerfed forms?