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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1592049" data-attributes="member: 3146">It's hardly being surly for the reason of being surly. Though I might have been more polite about it, your assertion in the previous post strikes me as patently ridiculous too.What AC and how many hit points does your fourth level melee brute have that he can withstand 10 attacks at +6 for 1d10+3 in a single round?My own experience of what is typical for fourth level melee brutes is something like AC 20 (+1 fullplate, +1 dex) with a greatsword or AC 22 (+1 fullplate, +1 large shield) with a longsword and 36 hit points. A barbarian melee brute would usually have an AC of 17-18 (+1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 ring of protection, etc) a greatsword and 41 hit points. If you're doing significantly better than those, you're either using characters built on significantly more than 36 points, or you have significantly more treasure than is assumed for a 4th level party or both.Either of these characters is going to have trouble with the hydra.The AC 22 fighter is likely to take about 11 points of damage per 5-headl attack.The AC 20 fighter will take an average of 15 points of damage per 5-head attack.The AC 17 barbarian will take an average of 21 points of damage per 5-head attack.If he rages and goes down to AC 15 (big mistake), he'll take about 26 points of damage per 5-head attack.So, under the one attack with each head per opportunity interpretation, the barbarian will be unconscious at the end of the first round (on average)--dead if he raged. The AC 20 fighter will be at six hit points at the end of round 1. Dead if the hydra gets another full attack. The AC 22 fighter will be at 14 hit points but unless he has the sunder feat, the hydra will eat him for lunch since he can only do a little bit more damage per round than the hydra can heal (fast healing 5) and if he attempts to sunder the hydra's heads even once, he'll be down to 3 hit points. If he just attacks the body, he'll be at three hit points after the hydra's second action and dead after the hydra's third action.Now, you will say, that's just one character--the other characters can help out too. Glad you pointed it out. Let's assume an AC 20 melee brute with greatsword and fullplate, a barbarian, a wizard, and a cleric to help out. In round 1, the melee brute takes an AoO and an attack and is brought to six hit points. The barbarian moves in, takes 21 points of damage from the AoOs, rages and attacks. The cleric casts spiritual weapon and the wizard hits it with a flamings sphere or something like that. In round 2, the creature attacks the barbarian, dropping him unconscious. The fighter attacks again, the wizard magic missiles the beast and targets it with the flaming sphere again. The cleric moves up and takes an AoO (which probably deals 18 points of damage or so) and casts defensively hoping to save the barbarian. In round 3, the fighter attacks the creature, it attacks him back (and drops him to -7 or so), the cleric pulls out a mace and attacks the hydra, the wizard burns it with the sphere and magic missiles it again, and the barbarian attacks from prone killing it. Now, of course, the fight could go much better (the hydra misses an inordinate number of times or rolls minimum damage every time it hits) or much worse than that (the hydra rolls 3 hits for close to max damage and drops the fighter on the AoO) but either way, that could not reasonably be described as a breeze. It could reasonably be described as using nearly all of the party's resources. (In order to heal from the battle, the party will need to use scrolls or a wand because the cleric will be lucky to heal one of the characters if he uses all his remaining spells). Using the attack with each head on every opportunity model, this fight is much closer to an EL 6 or EL 7 for the APL 4 party. (Of course, it wouldn't provide much challenge at all to the 6th or 7th level party unless their main brute is a barbarian). On the other hand, using the one attack using a single distinct head per opportunity (max AoOs=number of heads) model, the fight is much less challenging and could reasonably be described as a CR 4 encounter that will use something like 25% of the party's resources.</blockquote>

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