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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 2839578" data-attributes="member: 12460">With all due respect, a 4th-level party is not going to have sufficient means to take down something with fast healing 15 by spells and missile fire alone. Best case scenario, let us suppose your party contains a wizard, a ranger, a bard, and a druid. They are all elves so all are proficient with the longbow and have +2 to Dex. The bard is singing to inspire courage. The ranger (Dex 18, mwk bow +2 Str, using Point Blank Shot) attacks at +11 or +9/+9 for 1d8+4 damage. Now, not accounting for critical hits, he deals either 6.375 or 11.25 points of average damage per round. The wizard (Dex 16) happens to be an evoker with four scorching rays and five magic missiles prepared. For the first four rounds, the wizard deals an average of 13.50 points of damage per round and the five rounds after that an average of 7 points of damage per round. The bard (Dex 16, mwk bow) spends his first round starting inspire courage and after that does an average of 3.85 points of damage per round. The druid (Dex 15, Wis 16) casts flaming sphere the first round and produce flame after that. The hydra will take an average of 3.15 points of damage per round from the flaming sphere for the first four rounds and for the four rounds after that 4.125 points of damage per round from produce flame. After that the druid repeats (he has four produce flame and three flaming sphere spells prepared).In this (relatively) best case scenario, the hydra is going to take 27.9 points of damage the first round (12.9 after fast healing) and 35.875 points of damage (20.875 after fast healing) each round after that. Assuming no party member goes down and no critical hits are confirmed (we will not assume the hydra confirms either), the hydra will fall on the fourth round.The party was lucky to have encountered the hydra with a little bit of distance so the hydra does not get a full attack on the first round. On the first round, the hydra moves to attack the ranger (AC 19 from Dex and +1 chain shirt and average hit points of 25), dealing an average of 3.4 points of damage. On the second round the ranger 5-foot steps back to avoid an AoO (or five) and the hydra pursues on its turn, this time dealing an average of 17 points of damage. Uh oh. On round three we rinse and repeat and the ranger dies (for the sake of argument we will assume the ranger went before the hydra). So an average party that focuses in dealing damage from range is likely to lose a party member if they fight a hydra. Clearly the hydra is not a creature that you should fight this way.Unfortunately, the picture is even bleaker if we assume the hydra gets five attacks per opportunuty and the party specializes in melee. The greatsword-wielding fighter (AC 20 from +1 full plate and +1 Dex, average hp of 34) moves to attack his first turn and (yikes!) takes an average of 14.875 points of damage. He'll be quite dead on the second round after the hydra takes a full attack in rounds 1 and 2 unless the cleric gets to him.The hydra is a tough critter, no doubt. But you simply cannot deal as much damage with ranged attacks as you can with melee (things like flanking, power attack, and sneak attack add up). An AoO is taken for granted when you fight particularly large creatures in melee, but they usually have to have a weakness. A hydra has a low AC, meaning it is very vulnerable in melee, and if the hydra can AoO like a god, then the monster is an overpowering encounter that needs a higher CR (+2 or +3) because it has no weakness. If you attack from range, it can fairly easily out-heal your ranged attack damage unless your party consists of ranged attack power-houses. If you move into melee, it eats you up with AoOs and makes your life that much more unpleasant. Ostensibly WotC play-tested the hydra for 3e and again for 3.5. The hydra actually got MORE powerful between the two, gaining fast healing in the 3.5 conversion. I do not see how WotC could have come to the conclusion that the hydra was too weak if they were using the interpretation that each provocation means a horde of AoOs.</blockquote>

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