(hypothetical only) Dodging a bullet

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok, nobody in a D&D game is going to have to dodge a bullet (unless they go through City Beyond the Gate, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, or the like.)
But what if they had to? What stats would it take to do so? I tried to extrapolate. How'd I do? What do you think?

A bullet fired from a small gun travels at around 600 miles per hour. A bullet fired from a high powered rifle travels around 2,000 miles per hour. Or something like this? So, let's categorize bullets by speed:

Bullet travels at 600 mph (880 feet per second)
Bullet travels at 1,200 mph (1,760 feet per second)
Bullet travels at 1,800 mph (2,640 feet per second)

- Let's assume the person firing the gun is standing 40 feet from the target, and;
- The shot is dead accurate, aimed at the center of the torso of this humanoid (man-sized) target, and;
- The target has *no* chance to react until *after* the gun is fired, and;
- The target can somehow see the oncoming bullet, in order to dodge it.

What is now needed?

If the target begins reacting when the bullet (880 feet per second version) is still 20 feet away (halfway point from shooter to target), then the target is reacting in 0.023 seconds (the actual theoretical fastest human reaction time is 0.1 second, so this is 4 times faster than that.)
If the target begins reacting when the bullet (1,760 feet per second version) is still 20 feet away, then the target is reacting in 0.011 seconds (9 times the theoretical maximum.)
If the target begins reacting when the bullet (2,640 feet per second version) is still 20 feet away then he is reacting in 0.008 seconds (12 times the theoretical maximum.)

If the target reacts only when the bullet reaches him, his reaction time would be half as fast (and, obviously, not fast enough to save him.)
If the target reacts when the bullet is 10 feet out from the shooter, his reaction time is double the above. If the bullet is only 5 feet out, quadruple the above.

If an 18 dexterity represents the maximum human reaction time, what score represents 4 times better than that? 8 times? 12 times? 16 times? 24 times? 48 times?
Based on the 2nd edition strength bonuses to lift and carry, with a linear increase for every point beyond 25 (+300 pounds of lifting/carrying capacity), I estimate 4x maximum would require a Dexterity in 2nd Edition terms of 24 (24 Str lifts 1,200 pounds without encumbrance, compared to 18/00 lifting 300 pounds, or 4x lifting/carrying power.)

Thus, reacting at 4 times the theoretical human maximum (represented by 18 Dexterity) would require 24 Dexterity.
8x would require 28 Dexterity.
12x would require 32 Dexterity.
16x would require 36 Dexterity.
24x would require 44 Dexterity.
48x would require 68 Dexterity.

I do not know what these numbers would represent in 3rd edition. I am guessing you would have to add around 30 to the Dexterity number in 3rd Edition.

-

Now, once the target began to react, he would have to move his body out of the way of the bullet.
It is not far that he has to move; only a mere 2 feet. But he must accelerate quickly enough to move that 2 feet before the bullet travels the remaining distance to him (the remaining 20 feet, in the middle scenario.)
That is, he must move 2 feet in the time it takes the bullet to travel the remaining 20 feet. How much time he has to move depends on the speed of the bullet.

If the bullet is moving at 880 feet per second, he has 0.023 seconds to move.
If the bullet is moving at 1,760 feet per second, he has 0.011 seconds to move.
If the bullet is moving at 2,640 feet per second, he has 0.008 seconds to move.
He must move, on average, at incredible speed (*can anyone calculate this out in MPH?*) to avoid the bullet.
Incredible acceleration requires both incredible Strength (to move) and incredible Constitution (to survive the acceleration.)

I remember seeing a massive cannon firing a shell at a target 10 miles distant, and the shell hitting that point seconds later. So, materials exist strong enough to withstand the acceleration. I'm guessing properly made steel was used, and thus if one were as tough as strong steel one would be able to survive the acceleration.
But how high of a Constitution must one have, to have the equivalent toughness of solid steel of a size equal to their own body size? Can anyone tell me? I'm guessing it's a very high number.

Can anyone guess the amount of Strength needed for the acceleration? Certainly, it is prodigious. Not even a Titan can accomplish this, so obviously greater than Titan Strength is needed. Just how much is required?

Mr. Smith, in The Matrix, was able to 'bend the rules' of the Matrix Program sufficiently to simulate such high Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution (before he surpassed the Matrix altogether, that is.)
Remo Williams was supposedly able to dodge bullets as well.
In D&D, monks and some others can dodge arrows. Xena the Warrior Princess could dodge arrows. What would it have taken, then, for them to dodge bullets?

Again, I figured Dexterity from 24 (for low caliber bullets from small handguns) to 68 (against a high powered military rifle) in 2nd Edition terms (add around 30 to Dex for 3rd Edition conversion.)
Strength? Unknown.
Constitution? Unknown, but equivalent to the person being as tough as if made of solid steel of an especially strong grade.

Your thoughts?

 

[Nifft]

"Dodge bonus to AC."

Cheers, -- N

 

[Simm]

I think the stat you need to be really high in order to dodge a bullet is wisdom not dexterity. I would ask what the spot/sense motive check for spotting the ticks of someone pulling the trigger. Or at least that's how I always ruled monk's widom bonus to AC.

 

[domino]

"Dodge bonus to AC."

Cheers, -- N

Bingo. With RAW, all you need is a very high dex bonus to AC. The actually speed of the bullet is irrelevant. I mean, at epic levels, you can have supersonic arrows*, and still have people dodging those, because the distance of the projectile has no bearing on how much chance you have to dodge it. You getting 5 times as much time to dodge something because it's 5 times away doesn't matter. Only that the distance makes it harder for the shooter to aim well.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I know that Sense Motive is crucial. You know the guy is going to fire, and you move out of the way *before* he does, moving out of the target zone. That's the obvious, reasonable, way of avoiding being gunned down (not being in a gunfight, or at least taking cover behind something, also helps a lot ...)

I was trying to calculate how fast you'd have to accelerate to, to move the 2 feet required to get you out of the target zone, before the bullet - 20 feet away still as you start to react - reaches you.
The bullet is going to reach you in 0.023 seconds (for 880 feet per second), or in 0.011 or 0.008 seconds (for 1,760 and 2,640 feet per second respectively.) You've got to move 2 feet in that fraction of a second.

If you're moving 2 feet in 0.011 seconds, then that would be 2 feet over x = 0.011 over 1 second, which becomes 0.011x = 2, or around 182 feet per second. Since 88 feet per second is 60 miles per hour, we get 182 over 88 = x over 60, or 88x = 10920, or around 124 miles per hour.
Thus, the character must virtually instantaneously accelerate to 124 miles per hour to escape a bullet coming at 1,760 feet per second (there have been ordinary people who have survived this acceleration, which results in forces on the body of hundreds of gravities, but not many survivors.)
This assumes the character reacts when the bullet is at the half-way point, having been fired and travelled 20 of the 40 feet to his location.

My best guess is that this would require a 24 or 25 Constitution (nothing on the level of the tarrasque, but certainly on the level of solid steel.)

It would require truly incredible strength.
Look at falling damage. It peaks at 20d6 in 2nd edition, and that assumes Terminal Velocity, which is around 124 miles per hour.
Thus, the character is able to accelerate his body hard enough to slam into - say - an opponent at 124 miles per hour (if the opponent cannot dodge or is not otherwise protected) and then said opponent would sustain the 20d6 damage.
If the character can *slam* opponents for 20d6, then there is little question that he can *punch* for 20d6. The average damage of 20d6 is 20x3.5, or 70 points of damage.

Thus, in effect, the character has a Strength Damage Bonus of +70!
If 25 Strength allows +15, and it goes up +3 per point after that, then the character would have to have a Strength of around 43 or 44, in order to pull off the stunt (73 or 74, in 3rd edition.)

So, we have:

Dexterity: ranges from 24 to 68 (low caliber small handguns to high powered military rifles)
Constitution: at least 24, more likely closer to 30 (body toughness of solid steel of high grade required)
Strength: 43, +/- 10 (depends on the speed of the bullet being dodged - higher strength to dodge faster bullets)

I wouldn't, personally, require high Wisdom. I think it would be most unwise to stand there and let someone shoot at you. Chiun did so in the Remo Williams film, but Chiun was an egomaniac (by his own admission.)

What do you think? Do these 2nd Edition stats (+30 for 3rd Edition conversion) seem to fit, for dodging bullets from handguns and rifles?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I think a ranged touch attack would best represent a gun, but then again I think similarly about bows and crossbows. Any projectile fired out of a mechanical device is basically impossible to dodge if the attacker gets an accurate shot; all the defender can do is move around as much as possible and try to anticipate where the shot will be aimed *before it is actually fired.* 'Cause after it's fired, that shot's going to hit something before you can twitch a muscle.

TS

 

[eschwenke]

I think a ranged touch attack would best represent a gun, but then again I think similarly about bows and crossbows. Any projectile fired out of a mechanical device is basically impossible to dodge if the attacker gets an accurate shot; all the defender can do is move around as much as possible and try to anticipate where the shot will be aimed *before it is actually fired.* 'Cause after it's fired, that shot's going to hit something before you can twitch a muscle.

TS

Going by that reasoning you need to use Flat-footed AC, not Touch.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Was I correct in my above calculations about how fast you'd have to move, to dodge the incoming bullet (the one 20 feet away, moving towards you at 1,760 feet per second, and you must move 2 feet to dodge it) ?
Also, am I correct about the speed of bullets fired from various firearms (880 to 2,640 feet per second) ?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Going by that reasoning you need to use Flat-footed AC, not Touch.

Or more accurately a fourth type of AC called 'I'm Screwed AC'. This value equals 10 + size modifier + the number of explicitaves you use when it is targeted.