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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tzarevitch" data-source="post: 2036398" data-attributes="member: 1792">Wow. You are kinda hard on your group. You all can't be that bad. If your plans and tactics don't seem to work, keep trying, eventually you'll learn to develop better ones. Honestly, I haven't played with or DMed a tactically-challenged group in some time. Last time I encountered that was when I DMed Living City. My group (we've gamed together for more or less 9 years now) actually plans with such ruthless efficiency that it would put the Borg to shame. They make sure when characters are created that most of the bases are covered (someone can track, someone can be the stealth guy, someone can handle the social skills, someone can search/investigate, someone can be a tank and someone can provide the blast spells etc). My PCs  clear dungeons with mathematical precision. They use the Law of Square Maps to figure out the likely size of internal spaces. They also run detect secret doors spells and wave elves and dwarves past all surfaces to make sure they find all of the doors/hidden compartments/unnatural constructions. The last adventure I ran (2 weekends ago) they sent the rogue in (with take 10 hide and move silently skills in the 40s) and scouted out the entire complex for 2 days before they even entered. They took a census of which fiends  (the complex was in the abyss) resided within the building (which types and what numbers) and then even has the scout make a map of the floorplan. The even caputured a couple of low ranking demons and used Detect Thoughts to interrogate them for more information. They then retreated back to Sigil and picked up more equipment and paid for divinations to give them more information on which fiends they had to fight and which ones they could safely bypass. The only thing that symied them was that the complex had 2 extradimensional spaces that they couldn't find any information about. I ran a Dark Sun game for them years ago where in one adventure they realized the highest value treasure in the adventure was the steel front doors to the ancient keep. They launched a diversionary attack and then removed the front doors and then pulled the ancient nails up from the rotting floors inside the main door and fled with them too. They then checked back every few days to see when their enemies had relaxed their guard before they came back for the dungeon itself. Tzarevitch</blockquote>

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