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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 9649611" data-attributes="member: 9789">This came up in a game and made me realize the rules for attacking things you cannot see are weird.This was discussed a lot for 5.0 but I don't think 5.5 fixed it, and this entire post is specific to 2024 rules: RAW, if you are attacking a target in Magical Darkness (such that darkvision is not in play) that also cannot see because of said darkness, you roll normally to attack them. This is because you have disadvantage to hit because you cannot see them, but they grant you advantage because you are an unseen attacker, which cancel each other out. Similarly, they roll normally to attack you, since you cannot see them but also they cannot see you.This makes Magical Darkness functionally useless (unless someone has blindsight).But wait: it gets weirder. Two hidden archers that are 200 feet away from each other have a normal chance to hit each other (because all the disadvantages are cancelled by one advantage), whereas someone 10 feet away from a prone target they can see only has disadvantage. If you have disadvantage to hit something, your best bet is to jump into a fog cloud - because now you have a better chance to hit! RAW, if someone is Invisible (I capitalize the condition), this doesn't stop someone from attacking them (if their attack doesn't require a target they can see): they just have disadvantage. Which means the Hide action doesn't stop someone from attacking you either, since all it does is grant the Invisible condition. The frustrating part is that nothing really talks about locating an Invisible creature other than the Search action - which you do to find something you know is there, and then it removes the Invisible condition. What happens when something is Invisible and you don't know it's location? Is that even a thing that can happen? The problem is that nothing specifies that if you are hidden (Invisible), does it make anything unaware of your location? (It's specifically NOT the Hide action because that only makes you Invisible!)As far as I can find, there's exactly one detail in the entire PHB & DMG that talks about targeting a creature you can't see: a sidebar on p.26 of the PHB that talks about targeting something that isn't in the location you targeted, and that you would miss if you targeted the wrong location. Unfortunately, the rules don't specify how you determine if you're targeting the wrong location - unless you take a Search action to find a thing, which makes it no longer hidden, and thus no longer Invisible. (Even if they are still standing in Magical Darkness????)I'm pretty content with the Search action being used as a counter to the Hide action / the Invisible condition, and that this action nullifies the condition. And even the problem of "you are not aware of a creature that is hidden" is answered with Passive Perception: when you are hidden and gain the Invisible condition, your Stealth check becomes the DC for the Search check, and Passive Perception can be used when something is not making an active Search. So walking Invisible into a camp full of goblins doesn't mean they automatically see you, unless their Passive Perception beats your Stealth roll. I'm even ok with "the DM is assuming you are Hiding when you turn Invisible and thus you can go ahead and make a Stealth roll without using the Hide action" interpretation of the rules, which I honestly cannot tell if that is RAW or RAI, but either way it seems ok. And I'm even ok with the idea that if you are hidden you become Invisible and stay that way even after you leave your hiding spot (hide behind a boulder and sneak up on someone during combat). All of that seems to work together, IMO, even if sometimes it doesn't make logical sense - at least it's all consistent.The issue comes from targeting a creature you know exists that is still Invisible. When a creature is hidden/Invisible, how can you know where to target? How do you guess its location? In the example of a rogue hiding behind a boulder and then sneaking out to hit someone, if I Ready an action to attack the rogue when I can target it, does that mean as soon as the rogue leaves full cover I can now attack (I just get disadvantage)? What if the rogue is hiding in Magical Darkness - can I attack them anyway? How do I know where the rogue is if I can't see them?Can anyone else find something in the rules talking about targeting something you are aware of but cannot see, or how one would guess the location of an Invisible target? RAW as far as I can tell, nothing about hiding or being Invisible conceals your precise location at any time - it just gives disadvantage, and thus creates the unintuitive situation that Magical Darkness is only useful with blindsight.</blockquote>

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