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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5696315" data-attributes="member: 957">I agree completely.&nbsp; And agreeing to terms here is critical.I've been in multiple &quot;is 4E D&amp;D?&quot; debates, and consistently I find that it is a stupid question.If GURPS *IS* D&amp;D to you, then you SHOULD be generous and, at least, include all fairly standard fantasy RPGs.&nbsp; And that is a good place to have that a solid conversation.&nbsp; But in that place the question &quot;is 4E D&amp;D?&quot; is stupid because the definition of D&amp;D is so wildly open that of course it is and saying so doesn't offer any useful information.Or, you could be in the D&amp;D is THAC0 camp.&nbsp; And that is a great place to have a solid conversation.&nbsp;&nbsp; But in that place the question &quot;is 4E D&amp;D?&quot; is stupid because the definition of D&amp;D is so clear that 4E obviously is not.&nbsp; In the end, if your definition of &quot;D&amp;D&quot; includes both 2E and 4E, then it is impossible to not reasonable include a range of other games that just don't happen to have the brand name.&nbsp; If your definition of &quot;D&amp;D&quot; excludes all versions without the brand, then it must exclude some with the brand.&nbsp; The remaining option is that your definition of &quot;D&amp;D&quot; is irrational and inconsistent and that is not a good place to have a conversation.In case I spoke poorly, none of those &quot;you&quot;s above are anything but generic.I think the changes made to the brand were designed NOT in an altruistic effort to increase the fun of a select group of people on the assumption that those lost would just find something else.&nbsp; I think the changes to the brand were designed to increase the fan base.I think they failed.I don't need sales figure for that to be a reasonable conclusion.I'm not claiming that they lost X%.&nbsp; I don't know.&nbsp; And, really, I'm a huge fan of the DDI model and wouldn't be surprised if their &quot;SALES&quot; are doing quite nicely because of that improvement alone.&nbsp; But I don't own any Hasbro stock and I don't have any reason to care on that front.As a fan of the hobby I am interested in how the flagship brand is doing.&nbsp; And, just personally, I looked at the plan as they described it in the roll out and saw what, to me, were obvious flaws from the beginning.&nbsp; So, certainly, there is a childish &quot;I told you so&quot; pleasure in saying &quot;I told you so&quot;.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />But I 100% agree that as long as everyone is playing what they want and having a good time then THAT is what is important.If I wanted to argue about important stuff, I would not be here.&nbsp; I would be over on a political site somewhere.&nbsp; I can get into some great political debates.&nbsp; But I REALLY care about that and it stops being fun in a hurry.&nbsp; RPGs just happen to be my hobby, so I care enough that I'm interested and paying attention and can become invested in a debate.&nbsp; But, at the same time, I don't care so much that I feel at all emotionally invested in the topic.&nbsp; So I can argue, and it stays fun.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5696315, member: 957"] I agree completely. And agreeing to terms here is critical. I've been in multiple "is 4E D&D?" debates, and consistently I find that it is a stupid question. If GURPS *IS* D&D to you, then you SHOULD be generous and, at least, include all fairly standard fantasy RPGs. And that is a good place to have that a solid conversation. But in that place the question "is 4E D&D?" is stupid because the definition of D&D is so wildly open that of course it is and saying so doesn't offer any useful information. Or, you could be in the D&D is THAC0 camp. And that is a great place to have a solid conversation. But in that place the question "is 4E D&D?" is stupid because the definition of D&D is so clear that 4E obviously is not. In the end, if your definition of "D&D" includes both 2E and 4E, then it is impossible to not reasonable include a range of other games that just don't happen to have the brand name. If your definition of "D&D" excludes all versions without the brand, then it must exclude some with the brand. The remaining option is that your definition of "D&D" is irrational and inconsistent and that is not a good place to have a conversation. In case I spoke poorly, none of those "you"s above are anything but generic. I think the changes made to the brand were designed NOT in an altruistic effort to increase the fun of a select group of people on the assumption that those lost would just find something else. I think the changes to the brand were designed to increase the fan base. I think they failed. I don't need sales figure for that to be a reasonable conclusion. I'm not claiming that they lost X%. I don't know. And, really, I'm a huge fan of the DDI model and wouldn't be surprised if their "SALES" are doing quite nicely because of that improvement alone. But I don't own any Hasbro stock and I don't have any reason to care on that front. As a fan of the hobby I am interested in how the flagship brand is doing. And, just personally, I looked at the plan as they described it in the roll out and saw what, to me, were obvious flaws from the beginning. So, certainly, there is a childish "I told you so" pleasure in saying "I told you so". :) But I 100% agree that as long as everyone is playing what they want and having a good time then THAT is what is important. If I wanted to argue about important stuff, I would not be here. I would be over on a political site somewhere. I can get into some great political debates. But I REALLY care about that and it stops being fun in a hurry. RPGs just happen to be my hobby, so I care enough that I'm interested and paying attention and can become invested in a debate. But, at the same time, I don't care so much that I feel at all emotionally invested in the topic. So I can argue, and it stays fun. [/QUOTE]

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